Libraries
	 — 
	Question

Lord Sheldon: To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking to provide an efficient public library service.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, DCMS Ministers have carried out a range of activities to oversee and promote a comprehensive and efficient library service. This includes writing to local authorities to set out ideas that they might consider to help continue successful public library services. Arts Council England has announced the libraries development initiative. This will look at new ways to enhance libraries' success and relevance as vibrant local community hubs.

Lord Sheldon: The Minister has given a very useful Answer. Should we not get a comprehensive and efficient library service for the 21st century? Since libraries improve literacy, should library budgets normally not be cut? Should we not limit such closures?

Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, is absolutely right. Of course we should have a comprehensive and efficient library service. However, the term "comprehensive and efficient" represents the balance to be struck by each local authority in meeting local needs within the context of available resources in a way that is appropriate to the identified needs of the community it serves. The 1964 Act does not seek to be overly prescriptive but instead anchors the delivery of the local service to the needs of the local community.

Lord Tope: My Lords, I should begin by declaring an interest as the cabinet member responsible for the public library service in the London Borough of Sutton where we are opening libraries, not closing any, but that was not my question. Does the Minister agree that the public library service is and should remain the responsibility of local authorities and that if we believe in local democracy, we must recognise that that includes the right to take decisions that some of us might think are wrong? Would the Minister further agree that the best solution is for local authorities to use their public libraries to further community engagement and accountability, and that libraries can do that very effectively if they are used properly?

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right, and I congratulate him on opening libraries. Various places around the country are opening libraries, despite some closures. My noble friend is right that decisions need to be taken locally. Every local authority in England is required to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, and it is for each local authority to determine at the local level how much it spends on libraries and manages and delivers its services.

Lord Peston: Is the Minister aware of how much I approve of her use of the word "community" when we talk about libraries? I use the library in the City of Westminster. When you go to it, you get a marvellous sense of community from all the different people there, but fundamental to providing an efficient library service is people being able to get there. I can get there because I can still drive, but given that Westminster, the nearest library to me, has closed-in many other areas, lots of libraries have closed-when I cannot drive any more I will not be able to use my local library, and I am quite sure that lots of old people at present are unable to use their local library for the same reason. Surely the Government ought to take at least a bit of an interest in this, while leaving the power in the hands of local authorities.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is not able to get to his library. He still can? Well, I am very pleased. Travelling to libraries is very important; I could not agree with him more. They should be in places where there is public transport to get there as much as possible.

Lord Laming: My Lords, the Minister has helpfully said how much libraries are changing to meet changing needs and to create new opportunities for reading and learning. Does she agree that the Government could do more to help libraries promote the changes are taking place to improve access to people who hitherto have seen libraries as slightly alien territory?

Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord is absolutely right. Promotion is necessary, and that is what our libraries development initiative is doing. On the subject of commercial partnerships, it says:
	"This will consider how libraries can respond to increasing economic challenges in an innovative way, exploring diverse funding streams and the benefits of a resilient mixed economy".

Lord Elton: My Lords, could my noble friend expand her reply to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, to touch on the subject of mobile libraries, which certainly are extremely useful in rural areas and could be developed in urban areas?

Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lord Elton has a very good idea and I am sure that Secretary of State will look at that.

Lord Collins of Highbury: My Lords, on 16 August 2010, the Minister Ed Vaizey announced an ambitious change programme for libraries. The press release said:
	"The Future Libraries Programme ... aims to help the library service during the current challenging financial situation, with an ambition to ensure libraries play a central role for communities in the Big Society".
	Since then we have heard little from the Minister, although more than 10 per cent of libraries have closed and many communities are without access to a library. Will the Government take seriously their duty under the 1964 Act to ensure that local authorities meet their statutory duty to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service?

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I know that the Minister Ed Vaizey takes this very seriously indeed and we have discussed it on very many occasions. It is absolutely right that there should not be many closures, but there will be diversification, and data about the library sector are published annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. Many local authorities are still developing and consulting on proposals, and consequently the overall picture is always changing.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, may I recommend to the noble Baroness that she goes to Worcestershire to see its mobile library service? It also has a mobile computer service, which is absolutely excellent.

Baroness Rawlings: I will take the noble Baroness's advice and try to get there. Thank you.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, is the Minister also aware that the University of Worcester is opening what will be the first integrated county and university library for the people and the students of that university in the centre of the city later this year, in an iconic building that is going to be admired across the continent?

Baroness Rawlings: I thank the noble Lord very much for that suggestion. I commend the city and university, and I hope that many other places will emulate them and use the initiative to follow suit. I thank him very much for telling your Lordships about it.

EU: Fiscal Compact Treaty
	 — 
	Question

Lord Dykes: To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress they are making on discussions with European member states on the future legal basis for the European fiscal compact treaty.

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, although the United Kingdom will not become a party to it, we have participated fully in discussions on the intergovernmental treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance in the economic and monetary union. The parties have set out their desire that its substance will be added to the EU treaties in the future. Any such addition to the EU treaties would need to have the agreement of all 27 members.

Lord Dykes: I thank my noble friend the Minister for the very substantial and indeed creative fence-mending by Her Majesty's Government that has taken place since 9 December. Does he agree that although we are not yet members of the fiscal compact treaty, now that that has been successfully signed by all but two, it is our duty, as we stated before Christmas, to make sure that we help the eurozone authorities and the national leaders return the eurozone to its strength as a traditional international currency?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am happy to confirm to my noble friend that of course this intergovernmental agreement, which goes to the heart of strengthening the fiscal arrangements within the eurozone, is a necessary but not sufficient part of what we hope to see with the eurozone returned to health. There are a number of other critical elements, including sorting out the immediate situation in Greece, getting the European banks' capital positions where they need to be, and so on.

Lord Barnett: My Lords, will the noble Lord be advising the Government to be one of the 27 member states agreeing to a fiscal solution to the problem or will the Government take the view that, whatever happens in the short term, in the longer term it is perfectly impossible for a country like Greece in the state that it is in to be able to have the same exchange rate and interest rate as Germany? In those circumstances, will the Government be making arrangements and planning for something to happen that would not be helpful, because, as the Chancellor put it, it would be disastrous if the whole thing broke up? Is contagion a bigger problem than many of us expected it to be?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, it continues to be the Government's wish that the eurozone holds together and makes the arrangements, some of which I outlined in my previous answer. As I have said in answer to previous questions from the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, the Government take all precautionary measures and look at all scenarios that there may be as this still very severe situation continues to unfold.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Will the Minister have a shot at the question that I have given to two of his colleagues, which they have failed to answer so far, and state what objections the British Government have for the text of the intergovernmental agreement that will be signed at the end of this month?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I think that my noble friends Lord Howell and Lord Strathclyde have given very good answers to that question in the past and there is nothing I need to add.

Lord Howe of Aberavon: Will my noble friend take the opportunity of advising our right honourable friend the Prime Minister that in practical terms this is a setting in which the Prime Minister might be well judged to pay a little more respect to the advice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer than to that of the Foreign Secretary?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I do not think that it is for me to tell my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in any way where he should seek advice but I am sure that he seeks the advice of all his senior Cabinet colleagues.

Lord Liddle: My Lords, following on from the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, I recognise the concern of the Government that a caucus of eurozone member states should not compromise the integrity of the single market, but does the Minister agree that the best guardians of that integrity are the Commission and the Court? How does he expect them to act in that role if the Government keep saying that they are reserved about the position of the Commission and the Court in the treaties and there is a chorus of criticism from his own Back Benches in the House of Commons demanding that these institutions be kept out of any role?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the first thing is to be clear that the intergovernmental agreement is explicit that it cannot encroach on the competences of the EU and that the signatories to the intergovernmental agreement must not take measures that in any way undermine the single market. That is set out in the preliminary recitals and in Article 2 of the treaty. It is principally a matter for the signatories to the treaty. We have made it clear that the Government have a number of concerns about elements of this inter- governmental agreement, one of which is the use of EU institutions. Some of the proposed uses of EU institutions in this intergovernmental agreement are already in the EU treaties and others are not. The Government will watch very carefully how this develops.

Baroness Kramer: My Lords, in an earlier answer the Minister referred to the recapitalisation of the banks in the eurozone as a necessary step. What action does he think is available if those banks fall short of successful voluntary recapitalisation and is further action necessary at the EU level?

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, now that there is a realistic assessment of what capital is required, there is a clear agreement on the timetables and methods for doing that and it is well within the capacity of the eurozone to do it. I do not think we should speculate on what happens if they fail to do it. The eurozone, its Governments and the European Central Bank have all the firepower necessary.

Lord McFall of Alcluith: My Lords, Europe and the UK will be going nowhere unless competitiveness is restored to individual countries. Does the noble Lord agree that at the heart of any fiscal compact should be a policy of growth and investment? Even from our position in the wings of Europe, will the Government agree to ensure that such a policy is implemented, not least to help the many millions of young people who are now unemployed all over Europe?

Lord Sassoon: I very much agree with the sentiments of the noble Lord. The one part of them that I disagree with is that we are not sitting on the sidelines but are very much at the heart of the discussions about pro-growth policies and the completion of the single market.

Magna Carta
	 — 
	Question

Lord Lea of Crondall: To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to celebrate the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta in June 2015.

Lord McNally: My Lords, plans to celebrate the 800th anniversary of the signing of the Magna Carta in June 2015 are being co-ordinated by the Magna Carta Trust, an independent organisation chaired by Sir Robert Worcester. I am keeping in close contact with the trust and I hope that as many people as possible will join in the commemorative activities and events that are being planned for the run-up to 2015 and on the anniversary itself.

Lord Lea of Crondall: I thank the Minister for that reply. There are of course very special reasons to commemorate in this House what happened at Runnymede in June 1215 and, indeed, the evolution of our constitutional arrangements between the Lords and the Commons over many centuries since. Does the noble Lord agree that in addition to weighty documents being published and speeches being made, there could be something of a more popular nature? For example, the pageant that preceded the tournament in 1215 was itself preceded by a ceremonial exchange of hostages between England and Scotland. What does the noble Lord think about a replay of that? Other events might also intrude, such as an inconclusive outcome of the general election. In those circumstances, would one way forward be a series of ceremonial jousts between the parties in which the noble Lord himself might be called upon to participate?

Lord McNally: What excellent ideas. It is strange how the same thoughts go through our minds. Just as the noble Lord was speaking, I was looking at the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and thinking what a perfect hostage he would make in the circumstances. Not long ago, I went to a ceremony at Runnymede and pointed out something that may surprise some Members of this House in view of my views about reform-that at Runnymede, the Barons did very well.

Lord Cormack: My Lords, does my noble friend think that the Barons who look down upon us daily from their plinths above this Chamber would be best pleased if, a month after the next general election, they looked down upon a hybrid Assembly with a group of senators in it?

Lord Strathclyde: Progress.

Lord McNally: Indeed. I am sure that the Barons would be as revolutionary in 2015 as they were in 1215, but I defer to my noble friend because, sometimes when listening to him, I think he must have been at Runnymede for the signing.

The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Stephen Langton, played a decisive and formative role in the formulation of Magna Carta, and that was not the first or the last occasion in our history when the Church has, so to speak, helped to keep the feet of the powers-that-be to the fire in matters of constitutional freedoms. Will the Minister take the opportunity to acknowledge the continuing contribution that people of faith are still making today in defending human dignity that transcends temporary political arrangements, and will he further let us know whether he is prepared to advise the independent commission to which he referred to invite the Church of England to play a particular role in the 2015 celebrations?

Lord McNally: I would certainly hope so. As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, Archbishop Langton played an important part at that time. I shall draw the idea to Sir Bob Worcester's attention. I believe that this is an opportunity for us to celebrate a significant part of our history. I know that historical purists will cavil at the importance of the Magna Carta, but I always remember Eleanor Roosevelt, when she published the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, saying that it was a Magna Carta for all mankind. Nobody needed to translate what she meant by that. Magna Carta carries a resonance that has come down to us through the ages.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, may I invite the Minister graciously to disabuse himself and all others who fall prey to the misconception that Magna Carta was ever signed? It never was. As a charter, and as the name implies, it was sealed by the royal seal of King John, as the facsimile mounted in the Contents Lobby makes very clear. May I apologise for making such a pettifogging legal point?

Lord McNally: Not at all. I have long considered the noble Lord a master of the pettifogging legal point, but his question gives me the opportunity to put on the record, for noble Lords who want to get involved in the build-up to the Magna Carta celebrations, that my honourable friend Eleanor Laing in the other place is chairing an All-Party Magna Carta Group. I am sure that it would benefit from membership from this House.

Baroness Benjamin: My Lords-

Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords-

Noble Lords: Order!

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, there has not been a question from the Liberal Democrat Benches.

Baroness Benjamin: Thank you, my Lords. A favourite expression often used by British citizens is, "It's a free country". Thankfully, so it is, but many are not aware that our freedoms are the greatest legacy of the Magna Carta. What are the Government doing to ensure that children and young people use and appreciate this precious gift of freedom with respect and responsibility? Perhaps they could do so by establishing an annual Magna Carta day to raise awareness and celebrating on the underused Parliament Square, as suggested by the Hansard Society.

Lord McNally: Again, I am delighted by the enthusiasm with which the House is approaching this and I shall feed that idea back to Sir Robert.

Lord Howarth of Newport: Will the Minister confirm that Clause 29 of Magna Carta, which enshrines the right to due process, remains part of the law of England and Wales, but that it is under attack by the Government? Would it not be seemly if the Government were to celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta by withdrawing Part 1 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which removes legal aid from people on low incomes who are in dispute about their benefits entitlement or with their employer or with their landlord? If the Government should be less than gracious about this, will it not still be for the Barons to insist on the ancient constitutional principle that:
	"To no man will we sell, or deny, or delay right or justice"?

Lord McNally: The noble Lord once again confirms that one should never take that final question.

Prisoners: Transport
	 — 
	Question

Baroness Smith of Basildon: To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking regarding the safety and reliability of the arrangements for transporting prisoners following the two recent ambushes and escapes.

Lord McNally: My Lords, the National Offender Management Service has taken immediate action to reinforce security procedures and staff have been instructed to ensure that these procedures are fully complied with.

Baroness Smith of Basildon: I am grateful to the noble Lord; that is a helpful Answer. There is a very good record on prison security, which is why these two armed ambushes and escapes are so shocking. The week before last the Minister confirmed to your Lordships' House that,
	"escape must be made impossible"-[Official Report, 24/1/12; col. WA 220]-
	for Category A prisoners. The second prisoner who escaped had previously absconded from court, was sentenced for GBH in his absence, and was given an indeterminate sentence for public protection because of the seriousness of his crimes. I find it incredible that, despite all that, he was given a Category C prisoner status and deemed to be unlikely to escape. Will the Minister look into this, and can he make arrangements to assure himself that when prisoners are transported, the security category is double-checked or reassessed to minimise any risk to the public or to staff?

Lord McNally: My Lords, I appreciate the constructive nature of that question. I hope the noble Baroness will appreciate that a formal investigation is under way into the circumstances of both escapes, and the reports and recommendations will determine what further action may be required. A wider review is also under way into the procedures governing the escorting of prisoners outside of prisons, including the arrangements for transporting them. Her point about the categorisation of prisoners should, and I assume will be, part of that inquiry.

Baroness Sharples: Are the guards armed when they transport Category A prisoners?

Lord McNally: I cannot confirm that they are armed on all occasions, but there is an assessment of risk for Category A prisoners. The use of guns in one of these escapes is extremely worrying, but it does not happen every time. That is another thing that the inquiry will look into and report back on.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, the Minister mentioned that the National Offender Management Service was conducting what I presume is an internal, in-house inquiry into this. Can he tell us whether the Inspectorate of Prisons and the inspectorate of the security industry are also looking into it? Presumably there are wider impacts other than those on the purely internal workings of the National Offender Management Service.

Lord McNally: Yes, the inquiry will go far wider. As I said, the wider review which is under way will look at both the public and the private sectors. The review's aim is not just to hold an inquest into what happened but to learn lessons that will be helpful in the future.

Lord Bach: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the Minister for his answers to this Question. Are the Government satisfied that all those with the responsibility-and it is a difficult responsibility-for transferring prisoners are trained to a high enough standard in all cases to perform their difficult task? Prison officers certainly are. Are the Government content that everyone else who has this responsibility is trained to a high enough standard, too?

Lord McNally: Yes, I think that I can give the noble Lord that assurance. Again, standards of training is one of the things that the inquiry will be looking at. This will of course vary because we are talking about a large number of movements throughout a year and many of them are a very low category indeed. Under successive Governments over the last 15 years, the actual number of successful break-outs or escapes in transit has made this very much an exception rather than the rule. That is a sign of the improvements in transportation facilities and the training of staff. The wider review will look at this. As I said, if lessons are to be learnt, we will learn them. There is also the prospect that, with a greater use of television to allow distance interviewing of prisoners, there will be less need to transport them.

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords-

Lord Campbell of Alloway: Is this really a question of training? Is it not a question of making appropriate provision in these special circumstances?

Lord McNally: Yes, my Lords, but the fleet for transporting prisoners has recently been updated, so there should be greater security in those circumstances. There is training of staff-prisoners are accompanied by staff-and an assessment is made in advance, particularly of the transportation of Category A prisoners. The investigation under way will look at what is in place and whether those procedures were followed and, if all the procedures that were in place were followed and yet a successful break was made, what lessons are to be learnt from that.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Bill Main page

Committee (8th Day)

Relevant documents: 21st Report from the Constitution Committee, 22nd Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, 21st and 22nd Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee.
	Clause 61 : Duty to give reasons for and to explain effect of sentence
	Amendment 175
	 Moved by Lord Wigley
	175: Clause 61, page 44, line 40, at end insert-
	"( ) The court when requesting a pre-sentence report must ask for a social history on the offender from the Probation Service."

Lord Wigley: My Lords, in moving Amendment 175 I shall also speak to Amendment 176. I have been asked to do so by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, who apologises that she cannot be present today. These amendments add new provisions to Clause 61 in respect of sentencing guidelines. I will endeavour to put across the points that the noble Baroness wished to make and to combine them with my own remarks.
	Amendment 175 would place a duty on courts to ask for a social history of an offender from the probation service when it requests a pre-sentence report. I do not have a legal background, but this issue has been brought to my attention by colleagues who sit on the panel of the independent Parliamentary Inquiry into Stalking Law Reform, whose excellent report was published today. They say that such a provision would be welcome in ensuring that courts were made aware of the history of offending of a particular perpetrator. Sadly, many perpetrators of ongoing, unacceptable behaviour such as domestic violence and stalking are able to get away with it simply because a court examines only individual instances of their behaviour and does not take into account the cumulative effect that long-term patterns of behaviour can have on victims.
	Similarly, many stalkers and rapists have multiple victims, which can sometimes go unnoticed if the pattern is not recognised. When we also consider that perpetrators of dangerous and obsessive offences such as stalking frequently have a highly manipulative personality and can persuade criminal justice professionals that they are simply misunderstood and deserve a second chance, it is clear that changes need to be introduced to counter this. All too often, that second chance allows the perpetrator to continue his harassment of victims, sometimes even resulting in those victims' deaths.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Gould, and I were assisted in preparing for this debate by Napo, the probation officers' union, which has highlighted key case studies in the recent past where women have been subjected to harassment and stalking over a sustained period of time. In those cases, court reports have concentrated on the immediate offence, thus ignoring evidence that would be vital in determining the risk of reoffending.
	I draw the attention of your Lordships' House to a case from the East Midlands in which a 44 year-old male was charged with breaching restraining orders three times, all resulting in community sentences. For the index offence on this occasion, he received a 12-month suspended supervision order. The stalking behaviour had been going on for five years, and there had been sporadic periods of harassment. At one time, the victim was reporting breaches daily. He was later convicted for assaults on a new partner, who also suffered harassment for a period after the break-up. He also participated in a domestic violence course in the community, but that was discontinued because of further breaches of restraining orders.
	The probation officer believes that cases such as this are looked on as low-level domestic violence, yet have the potential to escalate quickly to serious violence and even to the death of women and children. She reports that in her area there is an increase in the number of men being convicted for a breach of restraining orders, but she thinks that they are not being dealt with effectively. Cases are not dealt with consistently even within probation areas. The harassment in this case has being going on sporadically for 20 years, and has been very intense in the past six years.
	I have been given a dozen similar examples; the same common theme emerges from them all. Professional staff believe that short prison sentences do not allow them to develop and complete offender behavioural work to an extent that makes an impact, and that appropriate sentences must be developed and applied. In some instances, patterns of psychologically harmful behaviour have not been sufficiently recorded, meaning that the offenders in question were not treated. This is partly an issue of resources, since courts are under increasing pressure to settle for a fast delivery report, which means that there is not enough time to investigate previous behaviour. It seems only common sense that a court, prior to sentence, should be required to educate itself as to the history not only of a particular case but of a particular offender. Many lives will be saved if this provision can be accepted, and I therefore urge the Government to accept this amendment.
	Amendment 176 would require courts, when handing down a sentence, to consider the effect of it on dependants. I know that in tabling this amendment the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, had in mind particularly the high instance of women who are incarcerated for relatively short periods, and the devastating effect this can have on their families. As was well documented in the 2007 report of the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, Women in the Penal System, the demographic fingerprint of women who enter the penal system is staggeringly different from that of men in the same system. Women prisoners are far more likely to be primary carers of young children, so the effect on families of a mother entering prison is far harsher than the effect of a father being incarcerated. Latest statistics show that 66 per cent of women prisoners have dependent children.
	The Howard League estimates that more than 17,000 children in England and Wales were separated from their mothers in 2010 due to their mothers' incarceration. Roughly 6,000 of these children were under five years old, a quite staggering figure of 33 per cent of them. Even more far reaching is the likely effect on single-mother families if a mother is put into prison, leaving the children to enter care. The Howard League estimates that only 5 per cent of female prisoners' children remain in the family home once their mother is imprisoned, which contrasts with 90 per cent of male prisoners' children. It is often said that prison is not the best answer when handing down sentences for women. On a practical level, Ministry of Justice statistics show that 54 per cent of women jailed are reconvicted within 12 months, rising to 64 per cent if the sentence was for less than a year.
	Equally, however, many organisations argue that we should be more lenient, particularly when considering the common reasons that lead to women entering into crime in the first place. These include relationship problems and coercion by others. The conditions within prison aggravate underlying problems afflicting many women prisoners: 51 per cent have severe mental illness; 47 per cent have a major depressive disorder; 50 per cent have been subject to domestic violence, and 33 per cent to sexual abuse. Against this background, is it surprising that no less than 37 per cent of women prisoners have attempted suicide? Mental health problems are still far more prevalent among women in prison than men, and self-harm is a significant problem.
	The effects on their children are equally distressing. Separation as a result of a mother's imprisonment punishes the children and will nearly always cause psychological, social and material damage. Wherever possible, alternative routes to rehabilitation should be favoured for women, particularly those with dependants. That is why it is so important that courts take into account the fact that women in these circumstances are indeed different from men. Courts should keep in mind, that is, that women tend to be charged with less serious offences and receive short custodial sentences, that one-third of them are single parents and that most of these women could undergo community sentences at one-tenth of the cost of prison, with much lower conviction rates.
	It is for those reasons that I support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Gould. I urge the Government to respond to them and take on board the need for change that has been so graphically outlined by many people outside this Chamber.

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, my name is attached to the amendment. The points that my noble friend Lord Wigley has made on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, are a fine illustration of why the stalking report that was published this morning is so important and its contents are so relevant to the points that have been discussed here already.
	It is crucial that the backgrounds of serious and repeat offenders are seriously considered before decisions are made. Judging by the list that Napo has sent to my noble friend, there are indeed many instances of short sentences where not only has no treatment been given but there has been no effective outcome at all. One can imagine that there will be repeat offenders. On that point, I stress that in the Midlands in particular no fewer than five of these very short sentences were illustrated.
	I turn to the second point, which is even more crucial: the effect on dependants. The numbers of children who have been affected in this way over generations must be into the millions. Let us think of the cycle of deprivation and the way in which their behaviour is no doubt going to reflect the less than desirable behaviour of their parents in the past.
	Women prisoners tend to believe, I think with some justification, that they are given harsher and longer sentences than male prisoners. I remember visiting a women's prison and being interviewed as a "victim", as it were. This prison had been set up with a marvellous two-pronged system whereby you had to learn both the techniques of how an interviewing system worked in a broadcasting station and how to do the interviewing. For many of these women, who had no confidence at all in their own ability, to have to ask those kinds of questions was a big challenge. They said that they reckoned that they had tougher sentences. When you consider that many of them would no doubt have been sent with drugs in them, put there by manipulative people from outside the country as well as inside, we need to take what they were saying very seriously. I hope that the Minister will respond favourably to this amendment.

Lord Clinton-Davis: I rarely disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but I do on this occasion. I do not think that there is any evidence that women prisoners are dealt with more harshly than men. That is a point which should not have been made because it is irrelevant. In my experience as an advocate, quite the reverse is true.
	On the amendments, I largely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has said, but they would not add very much to the present practice. The probation service always gives a social history-whatever that may mean-of the offender, and it goes into great depth. It also considers the effect of sentencing on dependants. Both those points, which are relevant for debate, are irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.
	We have heard a great deal about stalking today. Stalking is a very serious offence and we ought to consider the report, but this is not the occasion to do so.
	It is essential that whatever the probation officer has to say in a case is taken seriously and in my view, it invariably is. However, that goes to show that offenders must be represented if that provision is to take effect. All too often, the offender is not represented; by and large, it is important that the points which are made in the amendments are taken into account. So I urge that, wherever possible, the defendant is represented.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I have some sympathy with Amendment 175. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, I was taken back into the past. He said that probation reports go into great depth on the effects of sentencing on the offender. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, spoke about reports looking into the background of offenders. That used to be so, but in a serious case in which I was involved within the past 12 months, when a verdict by the jury of murder was reduced to manslaughter, I was shocked to discover that the probation service simply interviewed my client over a video link while he was in Belmarsh prison. He was given no notice; he was spoken to for about half an hour; and the ensuing report was simply a question of assessing the risk for the purposes of an indeterminate prison sentence.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Was that not put before the court? If not, why not?

Lord Thomas of Gresford: It was put before the court, and the request was made for an adjournment for a probation report to follow as it used to, with relatives being interviewed and the court being given some idea of the person's background and some concept of why he could have committed the offence. However, I am very concerned that at the moment the pressure on the probation service is such that it is forced to take these shorthand approaches of video links with a person you have never met before, carried out by someone much younger who makes no attempt to look into the background. In my view, it is a denial of justice in the individual case.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I seldom disagree with my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis. However, on this occasion I have heard accounts directly from individuals who have been the victims of stalking. One common thread appears throughout these accounts. Individual instances are taken into account but the severity and length of the offences that currently fall under "harassment" are not always fully taken into account. Even looking at the best case, what happens is that incidents may be looked at as a group or a collection.
	Some of the victims of stalking have been victims of the same stalker for years. Like many other noble Lords, I have heard the woman who is conducting the campaign that has been set up on this subject. She is a former senior police officer who has said that repeatedly a joke is made when the woman first complains to the police. We need quite a large change in attitude. The joke that was referred to this morning on the radio was, "Don't you feel flattered that somebody is attracted to you?", when the victim went to the police.
	On Amendment 176, spoken to in my noble friend's absence by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it is extremely important that we look at the circumstances of the offence. I cite repeated shoplifting as an example. In my experience, there are two different sorts of repeated shoplifting. There are people who go on shoplifting sprees, sometimes in groups, in order to resell goods for profit. There are other people who shoplift to get tins of baked beans for their children's tea. The fact that it is a repeat offence should not necessarily mean that those children are deprived of their mother if there are other means of tackling the issue. I hope that the Minister will give a positive response to this set of circumstances in which women might be incarcerated and say that it is an example where, even though we may be dealing with different sums of money, funding projects that help give women self-esteem, and do not separate them from their families, is a more cost-effective and socially effective means of tackling many of the circumstances of these women.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I find myself very much in sympathy with the sentiments that lie behind both the amendments. I agree with everything that was put so clearly and in such a balanced way by my noble friend Lord Wigley.
	In relation to Amendment 175, it could be said that one is dealing with two sets of reports from two different agencies. In so far as anything deals with the criminal history of the defendant, even though it may not be the subject of a conviction, it belongs to the area of antecedents and to the agencies responsible for those. In other words, a bare statement of conviction on a certain date giving the detail of the conviction but no more would be very inadequate if it did not give the sentencing court-whether it be a magistrates' court or a Crown Court-the background which is so essential for it to decide an appropriate sentence.
	Both the agencies concerned-the probation service and those who prepare antecedent reports-are heavily overstrained. That, it seems to me, is the real problem with which one is dealing. These people dearly wish to devote much more time and effort to the preparation of a report but are simply unable to do that due to the exigencies which exist.
	Everything that has been said in relation to dependants by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and those who support the amendments is corroborated by what I have seen over the years as a solicitor, barrister and judge. There are two stages when a court has to consider whether or not to impose a custodial sentence. First, it has to decide whether the gravity of the offence in all the circumstances of the case brings it over the bar, as it were, to the point where a custodial sentence is appropriate. Having decided that, it then looks at all the other circumstances of the case. Very material to that consideration will be the situation of dependants. It may well be argued, therefore, that it is not necessary to have the amendment, but I urge the Government to take a different view as it would help to concentrate the mind of the sentencer in that direction.
	Any wise sentencer-magistrate or judge-knowing that young children may have to go into care or be dealt with in some other way, will have to look at the totality of the situation, having decided that it is an appropriate case for custodial sentence. In other words, the sentencer has to ask whether the totality of the situation is such that the community and the interests of justice are best served by a person going to prison or avoiding prison in some way or other. It is not a question of what the person deserves because that is a narrow, tunnel-vision approach to the whole matter; it is a question of what is proper and just for society and all concerned. I am sure that it is a precept for the wise sentencing court-magistrate or judge-to ask for a full report from the care authority regarding what exactly will happen to children in the event of a custodial sentence being imposed.

Lord Faulks: My Lords, both these amendments are concerned to ensure that the court knows all that it needs to know before sentencing. In my experience as a recorder, the court would be acting very negligently indeed if it were to sentence a woman, or even a man, without knowing the effect of that on the dependants. That is the fundamental point usually made in mitigation. It is very much part of the picture that any sentencing tribunal would have to take into account. If for some reason an advocate or the probation service was not giving sufficient information about this, the court would ensure-by adjourning if necessary-that that information was available. Therefore, although I accept the points made about the necessity to take all these facts into account, these amendments are designed to tell the courts what to do. I respectfully submit that the courts know what to do.

Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I fully support the intentions of these amendments. I admired the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, but seek clarification from him. I have a question about feasibility and practicality. I am not sure whether it is intended that the requirements in these amendments should extend to magistrates' courts as well as to the other courts. However, if one considers the circumstances in which the magistrates' courts were operating last summer, following the riots, when they transacted an extraordinary volume of cases, worked under extreme pressure and sat until late at night, I wonder how realistic it is to lay upon those courts the requirements that these amendments would lay. I had misgivings about the magistrates' courts working in that fashion but I recognise that what they did at that time was seen by the public as entirely appropriate in a situation of exceptional crisis. Perhaps what I am really saying is that there is no substitute for having enough courts that are sufficiently resourced and a probation service that is well enough resourced, and for the courts to do their work as far as possible screened from the pressures of the media and politics. However, that is a rather fanciful state of affairs to desire.
	I therefore simply ask the noble Lord, whose purposes I thoroughly endorse, to explain, if he will, how he envisages these requirements actually working in practice when the courts are under severe pressure.

Lord Judd: My Lords, I must apologise for not having been in my place when the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was moving his amendment; however, as I have put my name to the amendment, I hope that with the leave of the House I might make just two observations.
	First, it has been said that it is not appropriate to tell the courts what to do because they know what to do. That is a fine sentiment in some ways, and I pay due respect to the sincere professionals who make the courts system work. The issue is whether the court has enough information in front of it to make a proper decision in view of the circumstances and consequences of what it may decide. The amendments are therefore dealing with a rather different point.
	I also want to make this observation: of course, when the court has before it someone who is about to be sentenced, I am sure that there is a punishment to be made; but if we are sensible and rational beings, and the courts are working well, it is also essential right from that moment to be thinking about the rehabilitation of the individual so that they can become a positive citizen. That is why the quality and depth of the probation service's report is crucial; otherwise, we slip into a sort of factory system of justice whereby there is an automatic response to a case. One has to try all the time to look at the individual and at how the sentence can be tailored to enable that citizen not only to be punished but to start the process of rehabilitation and join society as a responsible citizen.
	If we are concerned about future crime, there is nothing more absurd and wasteful than not to take fully into account the implications for the dependants, because we may otherwise find that the court, by not having paid sufficient attention to the needs of the dependants, has inadvertently contributed to the next generation of offenders in that family.

Lord Beecham: My Lords, we on the opposition Benches support both amendments and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and his cosignatories on bringing them forward. I have not the slightest doubt that any court presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, would not only know what to do but actually do it. However, that is not necessarily universally the case, and the Justice Select Committee in July 2008 raised concerns about the fact that pre-sentence reports were not requested frequently enough. It also raised doubts about the adequacy of those reports when they were presented; so there is clearly a problem in some courts some of the time, and it is sensible to make provision along the lines of both amendments.
	An amendment precisely along the lines of the second amendment was moved in the Commons by Helen Goodman MP. It is surely essential for the courts to give due consideration to the effect of sentencing on dependants, not only from the point of view of those dependants but-given that we are necessarily talking about costs all the time-to avoid the costs that may arise from, for example, having to take children into care or the long-term damage that may be done to families, particularly but not exclusively in the context of mothers being sentenced to imprisonment.
	The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, rightly referred to the fact that there is a high suicide rate among women prisoners. There is also an alarmingly high rate of self-harm. After all, one-third of women prisoners are single mothers; only 9 per cent of children with mothers who are serving custodial sentences are looked after by their father. That is not to say that there may not be other family members who take care of some children in those circumstances, but it is clearly a material factor.
	It is of great concern that more than half of women prisoners suffer from severe mental illness, and half have suffered from domestic violence. They are clearly very damaged women. One might feel that children in that family are already vulnerable and exposed to risk. Notwithstanding the experience of my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, it is clear that women are not treated in exactly the same way in sentencing, as a higher proportion of first-time offenders among women are sent to prison than men and a higher proportion of women are sentenced for non-violent offences-both significant differences. There is a problem about sentencing of women, and we will be considering that under later amendments. Bearing in mind the higher proportion of those women who have dependent children, the amendment is extremely timely.
	The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised an issue about the practicality of the situation and cited the experience of last summer, with courts sentencing people to custodial sentences in the middle of the night. It may be that custodial sentences were required. The question arises whether it was necessary for those sentences to take immediate effect without proper inquiry into the background circumstances. I would argue that that was not necessary, whatever the ultimate sentence may have been.
	My noble friend Lady Corston has reported extensively on the position of women prisoners. Her report will no doubt be touched on in conjunction with later amendments. The spirit of that report should surely inform the Government's attitude to these two amendments, which we heartily commend.

Lord McNally: My Lords, this has been an extremely useful debate and one that has not necessarily followed previous structures where the Minister sits there under fire from all parts of the House. It has been interesting to hear the various experiences, particularly of noble and learned Lords and their opinions on whether the amendments are necessary or add to present practice.
	The Criminal Justice Act 2003 sets out when a court must or should request a report. Amendment 175 does not address those provisions, which relate to the duty to explain a sentence after it has been decided. A pre-sentence report is designed to inform the judge or magistrate before they decide on a sentence, while the clause relates to duties to explain the sentence that is being imposed.
	Nevertheless, under the system now in place, a pre-sentence report to the court by the probation service sets out a recommendation for sentence based on the background and the risk posed by the offender. The report will set out any factors relevant to the offending. That will include a history of alcohol or drug dependency or any home life factors that might be relevant. That report is, in effect, what one would understand by the term "social history". Of course, the court would also have in front of it a print-out of previous convictions and it would decide which of these were relevant to the case.
	The law on the disclosure of previous convictions is a separate subject and contains safeguards to ensure that irrelevant convictions are not considered. The judge in a case will-indeed, must-consider relevant and recent convictions when sentencing. This is in Section 143(2) of the Criminal Justice Act.
	On the points about stalking, as was mentioned, the report has come out only today and it would be wrong for me to give an instant response on it or on its relevance to this matter. However, having listened to the debate, I should like to look at the amendment again and perhaps, between now and Report, talk to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the other noble Lords in whose names it stands.
	Amendment 176 would place a duty on sentencers to consider the effects of sentences on the offender's dependants. I noticed that the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, was in her place a little earlier. I have pointed out on previous occasions that we in the Ministry of Justice still keep her report as the guideline on the treatment of women offenders. The budget, which I shall not go into again, is a constraint, but we are trying to take forward many of her recommendations. Although I understood what the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, said and I appreciated his helpful intervention, I am firmly convinced that there is a difference with women offenders and there should be a difference in our treatment of them.
	The fact is that, in deciding on a sentence, the judge or magistrates are required to consider first and foremost the seriousness of the offence. They will also consider any personal mitigating factors relevant to the offender, which can include the impact of a sentence on dependants. The difference that the existence of dependants makes to the type or severity of a sentence, particularly where the offender is the primary carer, has been clarified over the years by decisions of the Court of Appeal. Indeed, the Court of Appeal has clearly established that if a court does not have sufficient information on the consequences of separating a parent from a child, it must ask for more information. In short, it is long established that the courts can, and in certain circumstances must, consider the potential impact of a sentence on dependants. If they did not do so where it was relevant, this could give rise to an appeal against the sentence.
	In both these debates there has been a desire to put instructions into statute and it is a debate that has continued since I have been in this job. It is a question of how much the legislators want to instruct the judges what to do and how much the judges say, "Listen, we're there. We listen to all the evidence and we get the reports. We are best placed to make the judgments". There will always be that tension between Parliament and the judiciary, but it is a healthy tension. However, I think that in this case the amendment is not a necessary addition to statutory provisions and I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw it.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, looking at public expenditure, sending a woman to prison and putting her children into care is an extremely expensive option, but in many cases the resources are not available for the alternative treatment that I know speakers in this debate and other noble Lords regard as a preferable option. The problem is that those who have to deal with a particular incident or the result of a series of incidents often cannot use that judgment. It demands lateral thinking to transfer resources from one course of action to another.

Lord McNally: I could not agree more with the noble Baroness. That was very much the thrust of the Corston report and of what the Government are trying to do in carrying through their justice reforms, particularly in the treatment of women offenders.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I am concerned about the instructions given to probation officers who carry out pre-sentence reports. Will my noble friend look into the matter before Report and find out in what circumstances it is acceptable for a probation officer to fashion a pre-sentence report based simply on a videolink and ticking boxes on a form on the other side? When is that permitted and what particular guidance is given to probation officers in those circumstances?

Lord McNally: One of the reasons why I am always at a disadvantage when dealing with my noble friend is because he usually has some recent case in which he has personally participated that proves the case he is making. I have noted what he said and will check whether that is regular practice. As I said, the Appeal Court has made it very clear that if reports are not asked for or are deficient, that in itself could be grounds for an appeal.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: Further to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is it not the case-I will be grateful if I am wrong-that under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, there is a requirement on the court in all cases to have a probation report in writing, save when the court sees it entirely proper to relax that rule, but not when a person is under 18? There is one other exception that I cannot remember, but it is quite substantial. In other words, will the Minister look not just at the amendment but at the parent provision, as it were, in the 2003 Act?

Lord McNally: Certainly, but the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, makes my point. There are responsibilities already in previous legislation that make these amendments unnecessary. As always, I will check. I am sure that his memory is accurate, but if not I will write a correcting letter. In the mean time, with the offer of some talks on the amendment, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will withdraw it.

Lord Dholakia: Will the Minister consider the possibility of a code of practice on how such reports are produced and give some guidance to the probation service so that this matter can be resolved without necessarily any recourse to legislation?

Lord McNally: That is an interesting and helpful intervention from my noble friend, which I will take away and consider.

Lord Wigley: My Lords, the Minister said in his opening remarks that he was in an unusual situation in that he was responding to a debate that had not overtly attacked the Government or him. I am in a novel situation as well, having had the Minister's response. I thank everyone who has taken part in this short debate. It has been very worth while. I pay tribute to the work undertaken by my noble friend Lady Howe in this whole area, but particularly in the context of today's report on stalking. I am very grateful for her comments.
	The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, has doubts about whether the amendments add very much to the law. The pressure that we have had as the tablers of these amendments has come from professional probation workers, who are at the sharp end and feel that a change is necessary. Whether that change is correctly encapsulated in these amendments may be another question. It may be that further guidance can be given to meet some of these points, but an issue certainly arises, otherwise there would not have been the wealth of examples. I could have quoted a dozen or more most moving examples that need the attention of Parliament.
	Today's report on the reform of the law on stalking by the independent parliamentary inquiry contains five recommendations that are directly relevant to the points covered by these amendments. I was grateful to the Minister for saying that he will give further thought to the amendments in the context of the debate we had last night as well as in that of the report, which add up to a need to give attention to this.
	The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, gave a very graphic example from direct personal experience. Quite clearly there needs to be some guidance to avoid some of the dangers he outlined in the context of videolinking. Whether that can be done by law or needs to be done in other ways, it is not a satisfactory situation and I can well understand how he feels about it.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, referred to the severity of events not always being properly taken into full account. I can well understand that. The severity, the incidence and the whole background need to be taken into account before proper judgments can be made.
	My noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan spoke from his immense experience as a judge and a barrister. He emphasised the need for previous history to be available in determining appropriate sentences. Quite clearly, the history is a guiding factor in determining what is or is not appropriate. On dependants, he emphasised the need for courts to consider the totality of the case and the implications that the sentence would have in that totality of circumstances.
	The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, questioned whether the courts are neglecting their duties. I imagine that most courts strive in every way they can to undertake their duties and to meet the requirements but, as always, safety nets in law are necessary when there could be courts that fail to do so. I refer to the evidence that has been sent to us by those who are involved in detail on these questions. I am sure that the Minister will take these points on board.
	The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked me whether the intention is that the amendment should apply to magistrates' courts. It was the intention that it should apply to both Crown Courts and magistrates' courts, but if there are problems here, by all means let us have a look at them. There might be problems with the workload on the courts and the nature of the courts. That might raise the question of which court is most appropriate for some of these matters. These are questions that no doubt the Minister will be willing to consider.
	I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for being a supporter of these amendments. He referred to the need for rehabilitation and therefore for maximum information to be available to facilitate that purpose and minimise future crime. That must always be our objective.
	I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his support for these amendments from the Front Bench. He emphasised the degree of self-harm among women in prison. This must be very high in our minds as we address these questions.
	I thank the Minister for his offer of discussions and further meetings to consider the implications of these amendments in the context of other developments. I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, will be delighted to accept that offer, and on that basis I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 175 withdrawn.
	Amendment 176 not moved.
	Clause 61 agreed.
	House resumed.

Abu Qatada
	 — 
	Statement

Lord Henley: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made earlier in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:
	"Since December 2001, successive British Governments have sought to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan, his home country, because he poses a serious risk to our national security. Qatada has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda. British courts have found that:
	'His reach and the depth of influence ... is formidable ... He provides a religious justification for the act of violence and terror'.
	In Jordan, he has been tried and found guilty in absentia of terrorism offences, including conspiracy to cause explosions at western and Israeli targets, and involvement in the bombings of the American School and the Jerusalem Hotel in Amman in 1998.
	The House of Lords agreed with the Government that Qatada can be deported to Jordan to face a retrial because of the diplomatic assurances negotiated by Britain and the Jordanian Government. This agreement ensures that individuals deported to Jordan will not be tortured upon their return.
	Despite the agreement of the House of Lords that Qatada should be deported, and despite accepting that he would not face mistreatment in Jordan, last month the European Court of Human Rights ruled against his deportation. It did so on the grounds that deportation would be in violation of Article 6 of the convention-the right to a fair trial-because of the risk that evidence obtained from the torture of others would be used against him. Honourable Members should be aware that this argument had already been considered by a British court, which rejected it.
	I hardly need to tell the House that the Government disagree vehemently with Strasbourg's ruling. We believe that Abu Qatada should be deported. We are considering all the legal options available, including whether to refer the case to the Grand Chamber. As we do so, we will continue to negotiate with the Jordanians to see what assurances we can be given about the evidence used against Qatada in their courts.
	Following the Strasbourg ruling, Qatada's lawyers appealed to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission for bail. We opposed that appeal vigorously, but yesterday it was granted, and will start within a week. The bail conditions are among the most stringent imposed on anybody facing deportation from the UK, and reflect the conditions set out when Qatada was bailed in 2008. He will be under a 22-hour curfew. He will not be allowed to access the internet or any electronic communication devices. He will not be allowed to travel outside an approved boundary. Visitors will need to be approved under very strict conditions. He will be subject to a specific condition preventing attendance at mosques and leading group prayer. If any of these conditions are breached, he will be rearrested and we will seek his immediate detention. But however strict the bail conditions, I continue to believe that Qatada should remain behind bars.
	It simply is not acceptable that after guarantees from the Jordanians about his treatment, after British courts have found that he is dangerous and after his removal has been approved by the highest courts in our land, we still cannot deport a dangerous foreign national. We continue to consider the case for a British Bill of Rights, and the Prime Minister is leading the Government's attempts to reform the European Court of Human Rights.
	The right place for a terrorist is a prison cell and the right place for a foreign terrorist is a foreign prison cell, far away from Britain. That is why we will do everything we can within the existing legal regime to deport Qatada, and we are doing everything we can to reform that regime to avoid these cases in future".
	My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Lord Rosser: I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Home Secretary in the other place.
	This judgment raises two questions for the House. First, what more are the Government doing to get Abu Qatada deported? Secondly, what are they doing to ensure the public are protected in the mean time?
	The Minister has made clear the Government's displeasure at and disagreement with the decision made by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission to free on bail the cleric Abu Qatada. The decision comes in the wake of a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that Abu Qatada could not be deported to Jordan as he would face what was deemed to be a flagrant denial of justice since he could face a trial based on evidence obtained through torture. As the Minister said, that ruling overturned a decision by our Law Lords. Perhaps the Minister could say when the Government will decide on any form of appeal against the European court's ruling.
	Abu Qatada has been detained under immigration laws for the past six and a half years pending his deportation to Jordan. The bail conditions, which have now been set, are in line with those set in 2008 when he was released for a few months. They are substantial and include a 22-hour curfew. Does the Minister know whether it is true, as has been reported in at least one newspaper, that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission judge indicated that the conditions of bail would be relaxed after three months if there was what he-the judge-described as no "demonstrable progress" made with the Jordanians?
	We share the Government's position that Abu Qatada should be deported and should stand fair trial in Jordan. There is a need for the Government to pursue discussions with the Jordanian Government to make that possible. The Government, I know, are aware that before the election the British Government had reached agreement with Jordan on safeguards against the use of torture in order to make deportation possible. That agreement has been upheld and endorsed in our own courts. Clearly it is possible to make diplomatic progress. However, we need more evidence that the Government are straining every sinew to address the remaining issue that has now been raised by the court. Perhaps the Minister could say what discussions there have been with the Jordanian Government over the past 12 months on this issue of safeguards so that Abu Qatada can be deported without being put at risk of a trial based on evidence obtained through torture of others. Perhaps more significantly, what discussions are expected over the next three months, and how do the Government rate the prospects of bringing such discussions to a successful conclusion?
	From the Minister's words it would appear that the Government do not consider the bail conditions sufficient to address the issue of the threat to our security which Abu Qatada represents. Abu Qatada has never been charged in this country. Perhaps the Minister could say whether that is expected to remain the position or whether the issue is under consideration now or is likely to be if the bail conditions-and we know that Qatada has previously broken bail conditions-either continue because it is not possible to deport him or, if it is true, are relaxed after three months.
	In addition to the 22-hour curfew, the bail conditions apparently involve no internet or electronic communication devices, no travel outside an approved boundary and restrictions on visitors. These requirements would appear to go beyond the conditions provided for under the Government's revised weaker control orders, the TPIMs-conditions which the Government said would be sufficient to control and keep in check the activities of those who could not be charged but who were deemed to pose a serious threat of terrorist action.
	Is it the Government's view that the provisions in their new, weaker, revised control orders, the TPIMs, would be sufficient to control any threat posed by Abu Qatada, assuming that he is released on bail very shortly; or do they take the view that having been released on bail by the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, the more substantial bail conditions which have been set out by the judge are, indeed, all needed? If they are felt to be needed for Abu Qatada, why would they not also be needed for those constrained under the new, weaker control order regime that the Government have introduced, the TPIMs, which are time limited to a maximum of two years, provide only for an overnight residence requirement, provide access to the internet and telephones, and do not enable restrictions to be imposed on someone coming into London?
	The Government cannot blame the European Court for their own decision to weaken British counterterrorism powers. We did, of course, urge the Government to keep the previous control order regime at least until after the Olympic Games. The Minister needs to spell out what action will be taken, including the possibility of any further legislation, and what safeguards will be introduced to minimise the risk to national security that the decision to grant bail to Abu Qatada represents both in the immediate future and later this year, at a time when our police and security forces are already going to be stretched to the limit with the Diamond Jubilee celebrations at their peak and the Olympic Games starting.
	The courts, the security services and the Home Secretary have all made clear that Abu Qatada is a continuing threat to public safety and national security, and the Home Secretary and the Government should be straining every sinew to get him deported. If they cannot, the Home Secretary should make sure that we have the legislation and the safeguards in place to protect the public now.

Lord Henley: My Lords, again I repeat that we regret the decision of the SIAC court, just as we regret even more the earlier decision of the European Court of Human Rights. As I repeated towards the end of the Statement, those things need to be addressed in due course. The noble Lord then asked what we are doing to ensure that Qatada will in due course be deported. I assure him that we will do everything we can, in terms of the negotiations that have taken place and the negotiations that will take place, to make sure that we can deport him to Jordan, and that he will be entitled to a fair trial that is compliant under Article 6. We believe that the European Court of Human Rights got that wrong and that our own courts got it right in that what he was going to face was compliant under Article 6, but that is another matter which is for discussion on future occasions. We will continue to discuss it with the Jordanian Government and I hope that in due course my right honourable friend or myself or both of us will be able to let the House know how we are managing on that. But as regards a timescale, I cannot give the noble Lord one at this stage, and nor do I suspect he would expect to have one from me on this occasion.
	The bail conditions are very severe; they are set out in the 1997 SIAC Act and the Immigration Act 1971. We are satisfied that they are appropriate for keeping him under control for the next three months, as is appropriate before we have to look at these matters again. The conditions are more severe than what is available under TPIMs. We discussed at length during the passage of the TPIMs Act the appropriate level of security that we and the security services need for keeping adequate control over dangerous people. I believe that we struck the right balance in reflecting not only the individual's human rights but the security of this country. No doubt the noble Lord would like to use this one particular case to make a political football out of the matter. I think that that is regrettable and I hope that he will not follow that on this occasion. We believe that what we have in TPIMs is appropriate and adequate to deal with the threats that we are likely to face this year and in any subsequent year. We believe that what the previous Government set out was overly onerous and not appropriate to what is necessary to provide security for the individual.
	I hope that I have given the noble Lord the appropriate assurances that he wanted on the more important questions. We will, as I said, exert every sinew to ensure that this very dangerous man, Abu Qatada, is deported from this country in due course, with proper respect for law and the support of the courts as is appropriate.

Earl Attlee: My Lords, may I remind the House of the benefit of short questions being put to the Minister so that he may answer as many as possible?

Lord Dubs: My Lords, is this not perhaps the most obvious example we have ever had of the fact that the use of intercept evidence in limited cases would enable an individual to be brought to trial in this country, found guilty and imprisoned without all the problems of the European Court of Human Rights apparently causing us difficulties? If the Government would only allow intercept evidence to be used in limited instances, we might be a lot further forward than we are now.

Lord Henley: Intercept evidence is a matter that we have debated in this House and in another place on a number of occasions. I have debated it from the opposite side of this House in a previous role as a justice spokesman, just as I have as a Minister on this side. It is a very difficult issue. The special committee of privy counsellors should continue to examine it and report to Ministers in due course. Being frank and honest with the noble Lord, I have changed my mind more than once on this issue. It is an issue on which it is very easy to flip-flop between the two sides. The advantages at times seem overwhelming, but one then discovers that the risks to one's intelligence and the sourcing of evidence can be even greater. It is a difficult question and not one that I would want to answer in detail when repeating a Statement of this sort.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the European Court of Human Rights has been reported as saying that our memorandum of understanding with Jordan is one of the best that it has ever seen. I do not know whether the Minister can comment on this, but if he can, can he tell the House whether it is capable of being extended to give the assurances that would be required? I hope that it is, because I speak as someone who-like the Minister, I am sure-is proud of a legal system that rejects evidence obtained by torture.

Lord Henley: My Lords, under no circumstances do we want to make use or encourage the use of evidence that has been obtained by torture. In that, I would agree with my noble friend. All I can say on the memorandum of understanding with the Jordanian Government is that we will continue to discuss this matter with the Jordanian authorities so that we can ensure that we can get the deportation of Qatada, but get it in such a manner that any trial he faces there will be compliant with Article 6, which is what we are seeking to do. We thought that that was what our courts-I think it was the House of Lords before the creation of the Supreme Court-had said was the case. For some reason known only to the European Court of Human Rights-but, then, one always has strange views about it-that court did not agree with us on this occasion.

Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will agree that public safety must be paramount, and I am confident that Her Majesty's Government are doing their utmost in this situation. Did I understand from the Minister's Statement that something was being done to avoid this kind of situation in the future? On appeals, did he indicate that we could appeal to the Grand Chamber? Would that be evidence-based, and would every ounce of effort be made to ensure that there is such evidence? Do I presume correctly that there is no appeal from the granting of bail?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I do not know the answer to that last question on the granting of bail, but the fact is that the court has granted him bail, and that is where we are at the moment. Yes, there is the possibility to appeal to the Grand Chamber. That is something that we are looking at, but I cannot go beyond saying that at the moment. If I hear anything more, I will certainly let the noble and learned Lord know in due course. The only other point from the Statement that I want to emphasise is that my right honourable friend made it quite clear, as has my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, that we will continue to look at the case for a British Bill of Rights, which we think is relevant in these matters, and for reforming the European Court of Human Rights. The Government are right to be taking the leading role in that.

Lord Faulks: The Minister has just said that the Government will attempt to reform the European Court of Human Rights. I know that there is great concern about, among other things, the backlog of cases and the insufficient margin of appreciation which ought to be delivered to national courts. Can the Minister help the House with how any such attempts to reform the court might avoid the very situation that we are confronted with now?

Lord Henley: I am afraid that my noble friend has probably asked me the hardest question of all, as to how we can deal with that problem and how it can solve our problems. Nevertheless, we want to make it clear that we think that it is right to look at reform of the ECHR. One of the reasons for that was given by my noble friend-that is, the backlog of cases that has built up there and the fact that the court seems to be involving itself in a whole number of relatively small cases that are not necessarily appropriate to it, particularly when one thinks of reforms brought through by the party opposite that have given us something known as the Supreme Court. It seems rather sad that, as soon as we have something called the Supreme Court, we have to announce that there is a court above it in the form of the European Court of Human Rights. As I said to my noble friend, finding a way to reform a court such as the European Court of Human Rights, which has of the order of 47 different members, will be a difficult job-but it is one that this country should continue to pursue.

Lord Blair of Boughton: My Lords, as somebody who, in a different role, has known of Abu Qatada's case for nearly a decade, I fully understand the dilemma in which the Minister and the Government find themselves. The same dilemma has sat in front of us in different ways for 10 years. I will look forward and then ask the Minister a question. If we go forward three months and it has been impossible to reach an agreement with Jordan, I understand that we would then revert to the TPIMs process. One issue about that process, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is that it can only be done once, for two years. So in two years and three months, Abu Qatada will be a free man under the current legislative arrangements. While not wanting to make one case into bad law, will the Minister refer this specific case to the reviewer of counterterrorist legislation to see whether that two-year rule is sustainable under these circumstances?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention, for all the experience that he brings to these matters, and for reminding the House, as I did in my Statement, that successive Governments have tried to get this man out of the country for over 10 years, since 2001. This and the previous Government have obviously faced some difficulties in that. The noble Lord talked about the future and mentioned that in three months these bail conditions are likely to expire unless we have got Abu Qatada out of the country-I sincerely hope we will have done-or he will be detained again for some other reason. The noble Lord then speculated that it might be that, after the three months expire, we find we have nothing else to use but TPIMs. As he said, that can only last two years and we would then be in some difficulty. He then rightly stressed the important point that one case might make bad law, and that the matter should be referred to the reviewer of counterterrorism. I can assure the noble Lord that the reviewer will examine this and its consequences. At the moment, we are satisfied that we will make some progress-I hope that we will-and will have a happier outcome to announce within the next three months.

Lord Judd: To follow the intervention by my noble friend Lord Dubs, this is obviously a problem that arises because of the inability to use intercept evidence in court. We all know that. It is a pressing issue because some of us in the House-I am sure I am not alone-would be deeply troubled if we went down the road that would tailor human rights to suit a flawed system of administering justice rather than ensuring that our system of justice was robust enough to handle such a desperate case. This is obviously an incredibly serious case. From that standpoint, it seems that the urgency is not simply to look at human rights in the European context but to look at our system of justice. If we have two systems of justice in operation resulting in the problem now before us, we must ensure that we have one system of European justice capable of dealing with terrorists of this kind.

Lord Henley: My Lords, I am not sure that I would go as far as the noble Lord in saying that we have two systems of justice. We have our own justice but obviously we also have appeals from that to the European Court of Human Rights. His principal question was about intercept evidence. Again, I do not think I can take the noble Lord much further than I took the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. This is a very difficult issue. I appreciate that there are very strong views on either side. It is not a decision that any Government will make lightly. As I said, I have certainly changed my view on this more than once, and I think that others have. I know that my noble friend Lord Howard, who made earlier comments on this, confessed that he had changed his mind on intercept. The same is true of others. It is being looked at by a committee of Privy Counsellors, and we should wait for their decision.

Lord Swinfen: My Lords, as I understand it, the bail conditions will be personal to Abu Qatada. Will other people living in the same house be allowed mobile phones and devices that can connect to the internet? What is the position with visitors to the house? Will they be properly searched to ensure that no such devices are taken in?

Lord Henley: My Lords, we will ensure that no mobile phones are allowed into that house. That is my understanding, at least, and I will write to my noble friend if I have got it wrong. We will have very strict control over who goes into the house; they will go in only with the approval of the appropriate authorities and only when they have been properly searched. But we do not think it is right that Abu Qatada or other people in that house should have access to electronic devices or the internet that he might be able to use for his own purposes.

Lord Kilclooney: Does the Minister agree that the difficulties in deporting this gentleman would not have arisen if he had not been in the country in the first place? Why do we offer an open door to such people to enter this country and become resident here, and were the particular circumstances of this man's entry into the country been investigated in the first place?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I do not know how and why Abu Qatada ever came into this country, but I will no doubt make inquiries for the noble Lord and let him know. Having said that, there are aspects of our policy of allowing asylum to certain people of which this country should be proud. I do not know whether that is how this particular gentleman, as the noble Lord described him, got in. It would have been better if he never had come in-I agree with the noble Lord on that-but I do not think that we necessarily want to pursue a policy whereby no one could come in at all. We want to have the appropriate strict controls; that is something that my right honourable friend has always made clear and some thing that we are tidying up after the mess of the past 15 years.

Lord King of Bridgwater: The last two questions indicate two major issues. One is that extremist preachers in this country have access to exceptional measures of communication that never previously existed and that have become available to many impressionable young people, creating an extremely dangerous situation. The point made by my noble friend of ensuring the total efficacy of the prohibition of access to those means of communication is very important. Secondly, although here we are dealing with Jordan, from which I understand acceptable undertakings have been given by a responsible Government, is it not increasingly the case that there are a huge number of countries of which it is easy for anybody arriving in this country to claim that they will be in danger if they are asked to return there? Finally-and this applies to this case alone-what might be the overall cost incurred by this country, with the number of people that we cannot remove who should properly be removed? Presumably, we are carrying costs that we carried for Abu Qatada while he was in jail-and presumably he is on benefit and carrying further costs as well.

Lord Henley: My Lords, my noble friend is right to point to the development of modern means of communications over the past 20 or 30 years and the advantages that they give to extremist preachers of this sort, which was never the case in the past. That is one reason why it is very important that we have very tight controls on what forms of communications will be available to Qatada in his house, with his family, when he is subject to bail.
	My noble friend asked about other countries and rightly pointed to the problems of deporting individuals to a large number of countries throughout the world because of their human rights record. That is something that we are simply stuck with; there is not much that we can do about it, because of the nature of the countries that we are talking about and the nature of what goes on. Certainly, that imposes enormous costs on us. I cannot give my noble friend precise figures of the costs of Abu Qatada over the past 10 years. However, I think all noble Lords will be pretty sure that they must have been fairly large costs considering that he has spent some five years in prison and is now going to be living at home, presumably surviving on benefits of some sort, along with his wife and five children. The same was true beforehand and there are all the costs of supervision that my noble friend mentioned, which are also very great indeed. Yes, keeping the security of this country is not a cheap option.

Lord Clinton-Davis: Is it not clear that this man has made outrageous and bloodthirsty comments about a variety of circumstances, particularly concerning the Jewish community? Is there any evidence that those threats have been resiled from? If not, that is highly relevant in the circumstances which the Government have to consider.

Lord Henley: My Lords, I am not aware that those have been resiled from but I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, for emphasising the particularly nasty nature of this man and the sort of threats he has made, to Jewish people and to a great many others. That significant fact ought to be taken into account and I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing it to the attention of the House.

Lord Empey: The Minister will be aware that there is widespread dismay throughout the country at the course of events, because our own Government and courts look powerless in our own country. Can the Minister advise the House whether any other Government have approached Her Majesty's Government seeking the extradition of this person? I understand that other Governments were interested in him. Is it not also the case that Her Majesty's Government have a duty of care for the security and well-being of the British people? How is that to be exercised and how is it consistent with the release of this individual, who has already been described both by Governments of different colours and by the courts as exceedingly dangerous?

Lord Henley: My Lords, he is to be released but he is to be subject to particularly severe bail conditions, which over the next three months will protect the country. However, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, is quite right to refer to the widespread dismay that many people have felt at the decisions of the courts, particularly that earlier decision by the European Court of Human Rights. If it had not decided as it did on that occasion, by now Abu Qatada would be back in Jordan and facing the trial that he properly ought to be facing in that country.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
	 — 
	Committee (8th Day) (Continued)

Amendment 176ZZA
	 Moved by Lord McNally
	176ZZA: After Clause 61, insert the following new Clause-
	"Sentencing where there is aggravation related to transgender identity
	(1) The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
	(2) Section 146 (increase in sentence for aggravation related to disability or sexual orientation) is amended as follows.
	(3) In the heading, for "or sexual orientation" substitute ", sexual orientation or transgender identity".
	(4) In subsection (2)(a)-
	(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit "or";
	(b) at the end insert-
	"(iii) the victim being (or being presumed to be) transgender, or".
	(5) In subsection (2)(b)-
	(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit "or";
	(b) at the end insert ", or
	(iii) by hostility towards persons who are transgender."
	(6) After subsection (5) insert-
	"(6) In this section references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment."
	(7) Schedule 21 (determination of minimum term in relation to mandatory life sentence) is amended as follows.
	(8) For paragraph 3 substitute-
	"3 For the purposes of this Schedule-
	(a) an offence is aggravated by sexual orientation if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(i) or (b)(i);
	(b) an offence is aggravated by disability if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(ii) or (b)(ii);
	(c) an offence is aggravated by transgender identity if it is committed in circumstances mentioned in section 146(2)(a)(iii) or (b)(iii)."
	(9) In paragraph 5(2)(g) (30 year starting point), after "aggravated by sexual orientation" insert ", disability or transgender identity".
	(10) Section 241 of the Armed Forces Act 2006 (increase in sentence for aggravation related to disability or sexual orientation) is amended as follows.
	(11) In the heading, for "or sexual orientation" substitute ", sexual orientation or transgender identity".
	(12) In subsection (2)(a)-
	(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit "or";
	(b) at the end insert-
	"(iii) the victim being (or being presumed to be) transgender, or".
	(13) In subsection (2)(b)-
	(a) after sub-paragraph (i) omit "or";
	(b) at the end insert ", or
	(iii) by hostility towards persons who are transgender."
	(14) After subsection (5) insert-
	"(6) In this section references to being transgender include references to being transsexual, or undergoing, proposing to undergo or having undergone a process or part of a process of gender reassignment.""

Lord McNally: My Lords, Amendment 176ZZA deals with hate crime. Hate crime is abhorrent and the criminal justice system should be seen to treat it severely. We want to ensure that offenders should be in no doubt that they will face more serious penalties for this type of crime. The effect of this government amendment is to add "transgender identity" to Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which provides for the sentence to be aggravated where the offender demonstrates hostility towards the victim on the basis of a specified personal characteristic. Currently, Section 146 applies to hostility based on the victim's,
	"sexual orientation (or presumed sexual orientation) ... or ... disability (or presumed disability)".
	Section 145 makes similar provision in relation to hostility based on the victim's race or religion. In addition, the amendment adds references to transgender identity and disability to paragraph 5 of Schedule 21, so that murders aggravated on the basis of hostility towards the victim on those grounds will attract a 30-year starting point.
	The amendments are straightforward but I should be clear that "transgender" is an umbrella term that includes, but is not restricted to, being transsexual. It will be for the courts to determine in individual cases whether or not the words or behaviour of the offender constitute hostility based on the victim's transgender identity or presumed transgender identity.
	The Government consider that all five monitored strands of hate crime should be treated equally under these particular provisions. This sends a strong message and should, I hope, give more confidence to victims in reporting these dreadful crimes. I beg to move.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, some of the saddest cases that I found in prisons when I was inspecting them were of people suffering from gender dysphoria, who were hoping to be able to change their gender while in prison. This imposed great difficulties on the prisons in which these people were because the facilities were not there to cope with them while they were going through that change. At the same time they faced considerable hostility; indeed, the hate crime that is mentioned in this amendment applies also to the attitude that other prisoners use towards these people in prison. If this is enacted as part of the Bill, will adjustments be made to prison regulations to allow action to be taken against those who show such hatred towards people suffering from gender dysphoria while in prison?

Lord Beecham: My Lords, it took the good Lord seven days to create heaven and earth and it has taken the noble Lord only a day longer in Committee to come up with something on which I can offer him the Opposition's wholehearted congratulations. We are very pleased with the amendments, which cover two points: the alignment of the starting point of sentencing to cut across all the categories; and the inclusion of transgender people in the scope of the Bill.
	Yesterday's Guardian was a disturbing edition, showing that at the moment disabled people generally are being singled out for victimisation in society as a whole. I hope very much that the signal that today's amendment gives will help to counter that disgraceful and worrying development. I congratulate the Minister again on bringing forward the amendments.

Lord McNally: My Lords, to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I cannot imagine that actions such as he described are not already covered by prison regulations, but I will examine that and write on the matter.
	Amendment 176ZZA agreed.
	Amendment 176A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
	Amendment 176ZAA (in substitution forAmendment 176ZA)
	 Moved by Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
	176ZAA: After Clause 61, insert the following new Clause-
	"Awareness of sentencing options
	The Lord Chancellor must make arrangements to ensure that each Probation Trust provides to all magistrates in the area for which it has responsibility-
	(a) information about all programmes and options for which it is responsible, and
	(b) opportunities to observe such programmes."

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, the amendment would insert a new clause on the subject of awareness of sentencing options. The amendments in this group in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford come at the beginning of this very important section of the Bill for which we have been waiting, as has been pointed out, for some considerable time.
	The proposed new clause would address the crucial issue of ensuring greater awareness of, and confidence in, the local programmes and provision available to magistrates when they make sentencing decisions. It would require that the Lord Chancellor should ensure that a process was established by which each probation trust liaised with its local court to inform it of the programmes that it provided and gave it opportunities to observe them. That would mean conveying the content and range of programmes, the options that were available and, importantly, their quality. It is all about communication, which informs and facilitates the decision-making processes of the court when it is sentencing. Of course, any discussion of individual sentencing decisions would in this context be entirely inappropriate and irrelevant. It is about the generality of provision and provides the statutory basis for effective communication between the magistracy and probation, which is in the interests of both and, of course, of the community.
	I pay tribute to the Magistrates' Association, whose chair, and particularly its policy officer Sally Dickinson, have worked with me in framing these amendments. They are wholeheartedly behind the objectives of these proposed new clauses, as indeed is the probation service through the Probation Chiefs Association. I am enormously encouraged by their support, which I hope will convey to the Government just how important those central agencies are in their support.
	Most importantly, both proposed new clauses directly reflect the central argument of the Government's Green Paper, which preceded the Bill-that too many people are in prison and that short prison sentences are largely ineffective and counterproductive, as evidenced by the high reoffending rates. Importantly, however, the evidence also shows that robust community-based sentences serve the purposes of justice and a safer society much more effectively because they provide targeted programmes and supervision, which result in greatly lower reoffending rates. The key to the increasing use of these sentences is the combination of understanding and, even more importantly, confidence in what is on offer. I believe that these proposals will be the way to achieve this.
	The initiative that I chaired for seven years, Rethinking Crime and Punishment, which was funded by the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation-I declare an interest as a trustee-demonstrated this case unequivocally. We set up a series of visits around the country when magistrates and Crown Court judges visited the probation programmes provided in their patch. Not only were they deeply interested in what they saw but their confidence in the programmes was clearly greatly enhanced when they came together after these visits to discuss what they had seen and heard.
	As a result of this work, it became absolutely clear to me that this level of working together is really important. I can say confidently that this feeling was shared by all the sentencers, including judges. Indeed, in the debriefings after the visits, the common response by many sentencers was very enthusiastic, and the phrase, "I had no idea it was like that", was typical. While I was delighted to hear that, it demonstrated to me how little they knew about what alternatives were available to them; it made one wonder just how appropriate, given what was available, their decisions might have been from time to time. That should no longer be the case if we are successful in this amendment.
	Probation's role in providing effective alternatives to custody is key to the Government's strategy of reducing the number of short prison sentences. The probation service is the agency with the closest working relationship with the courts in making this provision. Of course, we must bear in mind some of the shortcomings in that area where work has to be done.
	Starting from providing the court's pre-sentence report, the service is the prime provider of alternative programmes, working with offenders ranging from unpaid work to drug and alcohol programmes, domestic violence programmes, hostels and mental health provision, to name but a few. These are the sort of disposals that it can offer. The voluntary sector is of course an important provider and so, increasingly, is the private sector.
	It is equally important that the visits happen routinely to ensure that magistrates keep up to date. Inevitably, things change and move on over time. Provision develops and people change-it is a busy, evolving scene, and so it should be. Therefore, it is important, too, that regular arrangements are in place. Regular communication and visits also ensure that standards-another important element of giving confidence to sentencers-are sustained and, if necessary, improved to ensure that public as well as sentencers' confidence is maintained.
	What is being proposed here does not reinvent the wheel. Liaison committees were originally set up almost 20 years ago as part of the Probation Service Act. They were the vehicles by which the courts and probation service kept in touch. That Act was then repealed by the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000, which removed the statutory basis for these committees, most unfortunately. What we seek here is the restoration of that statutory responsibility to make the arrangements necessary for liaison between probation and magistrates, with an understood programme that has all the necessary back-up built in. This is something that both the probation service and the magistracy seek as the way to ensure that joint working is effective and sustained. A voluntary and informal basis will not do. This may entail simple small details such as magistrates' petrol costs or bus fares to visit projects. I understand that this issue may be under consideration by Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service. I wonder whether the Minister could enlighten me on this when he replies because this, too, is a key issue, small though it may seem.
	Both the probation service and the magistracy have undergone considerable structural changes in the past few years. I have worked closely with them for some time and I emphasise that they, who are the key players, believe that the proposed new clause is the best way forward and is in everyone's interests, not least those of the wider community. I am very pleased that the advisory guidelines for liaison between these two providers, issued by the senior presiding judge last December, endorse the importance of this liaison. Indeed, the judge's protocol coincides perfectly with my arguments. The critical purpose of the proposed new clause is to commit both organisations to this mutual working, backed by the statutory requirement to ensure that regular visits do indeed take place within the proper organisational framework.
	There is still a well of ignorance among the public at large about how courts, sentences and probation work. Public confidence is very important to the development of effective community sentencing. The proposed new clause is a vital step in bringing the magistrates, who also represent the community, and the probation service together in a greater awareness of how they can work ever more closely together, what community sentences are like and what they can achieve. This in turn will help to sustain high standards of delivery of service and underpin our striving for a safer, better society.
	My second amendment, Amendment 176ZB, develops logically from my first and again concerns sentencing, specifically the use of short prison sentences of less than six months. The amendment originally presumed that Section 174 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 would be retained. It places a clear, specific duty on the court to give the reasons for and explain the effect of a sentence, including why and when a community sentence is appropriate, or why the threshold for custody has been reached. In Clause 61 of the Bill, which has already been debated, the Government propose the substitution of this section with a revised set of duties that look very detailed and thorough. I hope to be reassured by the Minister that a strong, specific duty remains on sentencers to explain when the threshold for a custodial sentence has been passed and when the offence is so serious that a community sentence cannot be justified, so that the court and the public will understand clearly how and why a particular decision has been arrived at. I fear that the change in Clause 61 could have the potential to weaken the seriousness with which a custodial sentence is considered by the court and, by extension, the community, which I am sure the Government would not welcome. The courts' attention to these thresholds must not be diluted. The effect of a sentence being properly understood is also very important.
	Built into the Government's approach is the presumption that short prison sentences are tougher than community sentences, which in fact is often far from the case. Community sentences can be a great deal more challenging as the offenders are made to face up to their crimes and their problems. By contrast, one has only to think of the phrase describing children in a YOI getting a short prison sentence, for which there is absolutely no supportive input over a short period of time: namely, that they literally sleep through their sentences as they spend most of that time in their cells on their beds. What on earth can that possibly achieve? All the evidence is that short prison sentences are the most ineffective and potentially damaging way of dealing with low-level offending. This was, indeed, implicitly recognised in the Government's Green Paper-I repeat that it is an enlightened and constructive document-which outlined the need to reduce our unacceptably large prison population. The cost in human, social and financial terms to all of us has simply gone far enough.
	We must, of course, have punishments for law-breakers and prison has its place, particularly for those violent, dangerous and prolific offenders from whom we need to be protected and for whom prison is appropriate and effective. However, for the majority, particularly for those doing these short sentences, alternatives to custody are less damaging than prison, cheaper to provide, more effective in reducing reoffending and keep society a safer place. It is, as they say, a no-brainer. Punishment must be constructive as well as punitive. It is simply self-defeating and unintelligent to continue to pursue policies which can seriously damage our own interests as well as those of offenders. I am reassured that the Green Paper effectively acknowledges and understands this. I hope that I am not reading too much into it. I hope that by the end of this Bill we can see the legislation in place which will reflect this, along the lines of the legislation already passed in Scotland in May of last year, where there is now a clear presumption against all custodial sentences of three months or less.
	The purpose of my proposed new clause is to support the Government in their stated aim of reducing the prison population. It focuses specifically on short sentences, not only because of the damage caused by these sentences but because last year the 57 per cent of immediate custodial sentences that were for six months or less had the worst reoffending outcomes. I give noble Lords three quick figures: 67 per cent of those serving under a year, 66 per cent of prolific offenders and 71 per cent of child offenders will all reoffend within a year. My dear-my Lords, that is a lot of reoffending.

Lord Baker of Dorking: Oh!

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: You are my dear. I have my hero here, so I can say that. I had better go on before I make any more silly mistakes.
	In fact, the average sentence from the magistrates' courts is a brief and unconstructive 2.5 months, which came as a surprise to me. I ought to mention that in the Crown Courts the number of all those sentenced to immediate custody went up by 20 per cent last year, which was the highest for 11 years. The killer series of facts is that the National Audit Office estimated that the overall cost to the economy of reoffending by former short-sentence prisoners was between £7 billion and £10 billion in 2007-08; that while prisoners were actually in prison, it cost us an average of £39,500 per prisoner per year; and, amazingly, that the Crown Court process of imposing a prison sentence cost an additional £30,500. Imprisonment and subsequent reoffending comes at an enormous cost.
	Here I must thank the Prison Reform Trust for publishing its Bromley Briefings Prison Factfile, which is a gold-mine of statistical information and the source of my figures-when I can get them straight. By contrast, court-ordered community sentences have been demonstrated by countless projects and schemes to be more effective in reducing offending by eight percentage points overall, but with many more really dramatic and successful outcomes all over the country. For example, an assessment of the prolific and other priority offender programme showed a 62 per cent reduction in reconviction rates after 17 months. I refer noble Lords to the booklet published by the Howard League for Penal Reform outlining the work and achievements of community-based programmes, including award-winning ones, the length and breadth of the country-all of which show equally impressive outcomes.
	The Government have already invested in payment by results to reduce reoffending, and Social Finance is investing in social impact bonds to finance a programme in Peterborough prison that is in its early days. Such programmes have been generated, are happening and are growing all the time. We must buy into them.
	What sentencers can see and learn when they visit programmes is that for many-probably most-people on a community order this is a much more challenging experience than a few months or weeks in prison. Programmes dealing with domestic violence, drug and alcohol addiction or mental health difficulties, to name but a few, require the person to face up to these issues-a really difficult thing to do-in ways that they will never be able to in prison because such programmes are simply not available to the short-term prisoner, but this is the way that people change their lives.
	The proposed new clause in Amendment 176ZB requires that sentencers, when imposing sentences of six months or less, must state in open court why a prison sentence is more appropriate than a community sentence and draw where the threshold comes, so that people can understand what is going on and why the custody threshold has been reached. This, by implication, requires knowledge of the range of available options in the community, so that there is no doubt that the disposal is appropriate and just, and the decision can be clearly explained to the defendant.
	There is a jingle in the sentencing business-that it is a roof, a relationship and a job that anyone needs as preconditions when coming out of prison, if they are to have a chance of staying out. Of course, those are the preconditions for most of us if we are to have happy and fulfilled lives. At a stroke, imprisonment can take that all away, making reoffending all too likely and condemning the family to a parallel sentence of its own. Community penalties mean that the three preconditions can stay in place and something constructive can come out of the experience for the offender, the family and the community. The court must explain why, in the light of all the evidence, the decision has been made and where the threshold comes, and give the options available to it. Justice will then have been done. I beg to move.

Lord Judd: My Lords, I am very glad to have been able to add my name to these amendments, and would like to say how much I admire the work of the noble Baroness. It is not simply the utterly sensible amendments that she brings to our deliberations, but all the work she does to follow up what she is arguing for in this House. Of course, that is a two-way process, because it also means that when we listen to her, we listen not just to the voice of theory but to the voice of experience and practical engagement. That is a special asset to have in our deliberations.
	Punishment is the easy bit. Of course crime must be punished-there is no argument about that-but in a sane society in which reason prevails, the greater challenge is how lives are rebuilt and how, as I said in argument on a previous amendment, we can enable people to become positive citizens contributing to the well-being of society, as distinct from indulging in delinquent behaviour. That is the real challenge. If that is to be done well, it means that those individuals have to be looked at as individuals.
	I remember talking to a chief superintendent of police who was just about to retire when I was president of the YMCA and he was a prominent and active member of the YMCA in Britain. It was a private conversation, so I hope that he will not mind my relaying what he said. He said: "You know, it is a very lonely moment when you are sentenced. Some people respond with more bravado, but the overwhelming majority at that moment feel very lonely. I have always felt that where we get it wrong in our penal policy is that that is the very moment when someone should be there at the elbow of the person concerned saying, 'Isn't this a terrible mess? How are we going to sort it out and try to make some sense of this situation?'".
	What the noble Baroness said was not only emotionally powerful-there is no harm in emotion of the kind she was displaying in her remarks today; it is very healthy, and the passion which she feels for these issues is a great challenge to us all-but so important. So many of the people with whom the penal system is dealing have not had proper relationships, have not had people who cared, have not had families able to cope with or relate to them in their situation. There is a desperate need, as I have said in other debates in this House, for someone to take the hand of the person concerned and walk with them through the experience back into full rehabilitation in society, back into the job to which the noble Baroness referred, which is so central.
	If that is the case, if we are asking magistrates and others to function on our behalf to tackle those issues, it is imperative that we do everything we can to ensure that magistrates know of all the possibilities which can be considered for the individual in front of them. To have a limited range of possibilities, or not to be very much aware of the range of possibilities, is disastrous because it means that we are not taking seriously the issue of rehabilitation.
	On the issue of short sentences, I remember on a visit to a prison-in fact, it has happened more than once in conversation with prison officers-the prison officers themselves saying what nonsense it was and asking: "What on earth are we expected to achieve with these young people? How on earth is this helping them? They are going through a more disruptive experience. They are being taken further away from society and the chance to start rebuilding their lives in detention. What are we doing? What are we expected to be administering on behalf of society?". If it is a matter to be dealt with by some by awarding a short sentence, there must be other means available which are more constructive and intelligent.
	I conclude what I want to say in support of the noble Baroness by repeating something which has been said in debates before but which it is not possible to repeat too often. On the door of every cell should be "Rehabilitation?"-with a question mark after it-because, if we are not achieving rehabilitation, what are we doing? We are losing an individual, and we are almost inevitably ensuring future costs for society not only in terms of reoffending but in terms of the cost of dealing with the consequences of that reoffending, with further spells in prison or whatever. I believe that in the whole culture of our penal system and in the culture of the professions who administer our penal system there should be a passionate commitment to achieving at all costs, wherever possible, the rehabilitation of offenders. That is why these amendments tabled by the noble Baroness are so right. They make economic and social sense, and I hope that they also make sense when we think about what the values of a decent and civilised society should be. I hope that we care about the individual.
	This morning in my old constituency of Portsmouth, where Dickens was born, I attended a ceremony to mark his 200th birthday. During the service in the great St Mary's Church in Portsmouth, which was part of the ceremony, I was startled to hear a piece by Dickens himself on the application of Christian values. I had not read it before, to my shame, but I commend it to Members of this House. With his social commitment and understanding, and his brilliance in setting out the issues with which society is confronted, as well as its responsibilities to put them right, Dickens speaks directly about the whole principle that, if we call ourselves Christians, we must commit ourselves to caring not simply for the victim-although of course the victim matters-but for the offender, with a commitment to enabling the offender to sort out his or her life.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I, too, have added my name to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater. At the outset, I echo the tributes paid to her by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and at the same time I pay tribute to the noble Lord for the passion and compassion that he always brings to debates on these subjects.
	On Amendment 176ZAA, I have long thought that the provision of sentences with prospectuses of what the prison and probation services can and cannot do for offenders would serve a very useful purpose for the whole of the management system, and therefore I should like to widen the amendment slightly to include the Prison Service. While the noble Baroness was speaking, I could not help reflecting that for the first 100 years of its existence the probation service worked very closely with the courts and the police. It is only in recent years that it has been made subordinate to prisons, and that, to my mind, has given the wrong emphasis.
	Everything that the noble Baroness said about Rethinking Crime and Punishment I share, because I had the great privilege of being a member of the initiative's steering group. I entirely endorse everything that she said about the place of the community sentence. However, perhaps I may refer to the prospectuses. First and most obviously, they tell sentencers what is or is not possible and how long that might take to be achieved, because there is no point in somebody embarking on a course which cannot be completed during the sentence.
	Of course, there is a danger that, as a result, some sentencers might award sentences that are longer than normal in order to complete a behaviour programme. I believe that that is a fault in the right direction, not least because the present practice of awarding sentences that are too short for the completion of any meaningful remedial action is wasteful of both time and money. As a side-effect, the provision of such a practice might also encourage the adoption of what happens in some Scandinavian countries where, at the time of sentence, the sentencer lays down what course of programmes a prisoner has to complete during that sentence. If these are satisfactorily completed before the end of the period of the sentence, the governor of the prison can take the prisoner back to the sentencer and ask for earlier release on the grounds that the conditions laid down have been met. Prisoners can then be released on licence, which saves prison time, space and money.
	The second side-effect would be to force the prison and probation services to cost and plan all their offending behaviour and other courses. Knowing how many courses and programmes are required to meet the need of sentencers would for the first time give some indication of the actual shortfall in the current provision. What is more, it would allow individual prisons to be made responsible for conducting certain courses in particular geographical areas rather than the current inefficient system in which individual governors are not bound to carry on from where their predecessors left off-remarkably, and expensively, they are left to decide how they will satisfy particular targets and performance indicators, which may have no relation to overall need and involve the cancellation of programmes initiated by their predecessors. In other words, knowing what has to be done and by when would at last allow some certainty and stability to be applied to the role of each and every prison. I do not want to say more, or to say more about short sentences, except to echo everything that the noble Baroness said. The figures prove how much cheaper community sentences are.
	Actually, there is another side-effect because if it was accepted that community sentences were to be the norm-the default position-and the short sentence the opposite, improvements on the provision of the community sentence would be forced, in order to give the public confidence that that is worth while. That links with Amendment 176A because I believe that the prospectus of what can be done in those community sentences is just as important as what is done in custody.

Lord Woolf: It is with great diffidence that I seek to say a few words as almost everything that can be said on this subject has been said by the three very distinguished noble Lords who preceded me. This is ground that has been well trodden. I fear that the importance of the two amendments may not be appreciated for that reason and that it will be said, "Oh yes, we all know everything contained in the amendments and therefore we can do without them". Perhaps I can rely on my experience in a different capacity to enable me to say that such an approach would be wrong.
	For five years, at least, it was my responsibility to try and oversee the sentencing in the courts of England and Wales. We all knew that our sentencing was not working as well as it should. We were distracted from time to time by arguments about whether prison worked but that really was not the issue. The issue was: were we imposing sentences that would most likely result in the offender who was before the court not reoffending but instead, as a result of his previous offending and being brought before the court, setting himself or herself on a new road to live as a law-abiding member of the community? Every time that could be achieved-it was not easy to achieve-the community would receive protection that it would not otherwise receive. Every time that that was done, the public would be less in danger than if the course that was adopted was achieved.
	That is particularly true in that difficult ground which lies between sentences that can properly take place in the community and those that cannot. There is a very simple way of approaching this. What every court that has to impose sentences involving deprivation of liberty should do is to impose a sentence that is no longer than it has to be. If it has to be a sentence of custody, then it should be as short as is appropriate. In the case of short sentences, any sentencer should have well in mind the real restrictions on what can be done by the Prison Service for those who are sentenced to a short sentence. In the great majority of cases, the position is clear: nothing positive can be achieved by a short sentence, other than to mark the nature of the offence. Magistrates and judges are faced again and again with a situation where they have tried to avoid sending an offender to custody, but his or her conduct has shown that the alternatives are just ignored. Then, with reluctance, the sentencer can, and should, in my judgment, impose, as a final resort, a sentence of imprisonment, as long as the sentencer bears in mind the need to keep that sentence as short as possible. Those are a minority of cases. They are not the cases that make up the statistics to which the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, referred. They cannot account for that number of people being given sentences that cannot achieve anything positive as the final deterrent.
	I tried, and other senior judges tried, to inculcate within the magistrates and the judiciary the importance of keeping the number of prisoners serving short sentences to the minimum. I am bound to say that I never succeeded. Having listened to the speeches made in the course of this short debate, I think it would be marvellous if copies of Hansard containing them could be placed before each judge and magistrate. I am not going to suggest a further amendment to achieve that, but I want to underline that even though it is so well known that the effectiveness of short sentences is so limited, and even though it is so well known that the resources that are spent on short sentences are needed for community sentences, it does not happen. That means that these amendments could just make a difference. For that reason alone, I hope the Government will consider the amendments most seriously. I think it is appropriate to adopt them.

Lord Judd: Perhaps I might ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, a question. Does he agree that the villain of the piece is the sensationalist writing-if you can actually call it writing-in some of the populist press about penal matters? Does he also agree that we ignore at our cost the reality that even judges-if I may say so, with respect-are human beings, that magistrates living in the community are very much human beings, and that unfortunately there is a degree of intimidation to the effect that if they do what they believe is right in the circumstances they may be pilloried in a way that is going to be unpleasant for them and their families? Is it not time that we all got together and started confronting that element of the media and saying, "You are the very people who are exacerbating the issue of crime and misconduct in society by playing for short-term gains and completely misrepresenting the reality"?

Lord Woolf: I would be bold beyond my own abilities to be bold if I were to try to attribute responsibility between the various players in our society as a whole. I think that we all contribute to the present situation. Judges cannot hide behind the media; magistrates cannot hide behind the media; and I certainly would not have sought to shirk the responsibilities I had by hiding behind the media. Nothing would please me more than if the media could learn the wise lesson that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, was suggesting that they should learn.
	The noble Lord is absolutely correct. Sentencing is a lonely business. When you are put under considerable pressure in trying to determine the right sentence, you try to put out of your mind what you read daily in the media, but sometimes it is a very difficult thing to do. But it can just make the difference that I have said is so important between taking the decision of imposing a short sentence and taking the much more sensible course of imposing a positive sentence-one of the sentences that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, wants the courts to be aware of-which can so much better be imposed of service in the community.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate but it has been so important that I felt that I really had to.
	Some noble Lords may know that I sit as a magistrate so it is with some trepidation that I follow the noble and learned Lord. I sit as a very junior magistrate in central London and I sit on a probation liaison committee. That committee is of huge importance, both to me personally and to all my colleagues. Of course, we become aware of the sentencing options. It is a training event that happens regularly-it happens every Thursday as well as more substantial training events-and I and my colleagues regard it as extremely helpful to be brought up to date on a continuous basis with all the community sentence courses that are available.
	I very much support the first amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater. It is of huge importance. It is particularly important that it is on a statutory basis because that will recognise the importance of that work in giving magistrates confidence in the community sentences so they can go ahead and issue them. That is an absolutely central point, about which I can talk from my own experience.
	I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about programmes sometimes being too long to fit in with the length of the community sentence. I have come across this issue several times. One needs to have a real faith and trust in the probation reports that one is given in order to come up, if you like, with the minimum time realistically to achieve the elements within those sentences. Again, that comes down to a question of professional trust between the different elements in any court.
	Even though I agree with the general views on minimum sentences, I am rather less enthusiastic about the noble Baroness's second amendment which concerns them. In my experience, some 90 to 95 per cent of the short-term sentences that I have given have been for people who have broken their community orders. I understand that that is not an attractive argument but that is the reality of my sentencing experience here in London. Of course we constantly look at the alternatives. No one wants to give short-term custodial sentences. I understand that they are very often ineffective, but the reality is that very often the people to whom one gives those sentences have already failed on their community orders.

Lord Woolf: My Lords, does the noble Lord not think that the amendment clearly covers that case? It allows a short sentence to be imposed when there is no other appropriate way of dealing with the offender. If you have imposed a sentence and the offender has not complied with it, surely that is a classic example of a situation where there is no other appropriate method of dealing with the offender. I say that with diffidence because I appreciate how difficult it is for magistrates to deal with the sort of offender the noble Lord has just described.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, is of course correct. Magistrates already give their reasons and say why it is so serious that only a custodial sentence will do. I was really addressing the speech made by the noble Baroness, a substantial part of which was against short sentences per se. I understand that the amendment does not make that point, but, because of her speech, I felt duty bound to point out that the reality is that we are very often sentencing for breaches of community orders. Nevertheless, this is an important debate and I am happy to support both amendments.

Lord Beecham: My Lords, I defer to the huge wisdom and practical experience of all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. In particular, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, on the clarity with which she developed her arguments in respect of both amendments. Like her, I am indebted to the Prison Reform Trust for its briefing. I should say that I am a member of an advisory group on young offenders that is run by the Prison Reform Trust.
	On the first amendment, clearly it would be helpful to everyone involved in the system for the maximum degree of information to be available to those who are charged with the responsibility of sentencing-and in so doing, to take advantage of the work of the Local Crime: Community Sentence initiative which is run by the Magistrates' Association and the Probation Association and has been endorsed by the Lord Chief Justice. This is in part to assist magistrates in coming to their decisions, but also in part to ensure that the public are aware that community penalties can be and often are an effective alternative to imprisonment. But there is a feeling that, perhaps due to pressures on the probation service in particular, there has been a reduction in the degree to which the two are working together and communicating effectively in practice. It is no easy task to deal with the volume of cases that come before the courts, either from the standpoint of the probation service or, indeed, from that of the magistracy and those who provide advice to magistrates. This amendment certainly offers an opportunity to develop what has been good practice and ensure that it is spread more widely.
	On the second amendment, my noble friend Lord Ponsonby touched on an interesting area, which is the degree to which short sentences are used to deal with breaches of community orders and the like. It could be argued that custodial sentences are sometimes imposed too readily in such cases, but in any event, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, implied, they are potentially a discrete category and one could well see them falling within the qualification which, as the noble and learned Lord reminded us, is part of the provision. It is interesting to note that the former chair of the Public Accounts Committee, Mr Edward Leigh-who I think would be the first to say that he could not be counted among the most liberal-minded of politicians-in talking about short prison terms, observed:
	"They served little purpose over and above taking the offenders in question out of the community for a short time ...The uncomfortable truth is that they are not working, studying or doing almost anything constructive with their time. Indeed, half of then them spend all day, every day sitting in their cells".
	That is true of more than those serving short sentences in prison. Whatever else happens as we develop our penal system, it is clearly necessary to do more than simply confine people if they are to be rehabilitated and, indeed, to constructively pay their debt to society. So whether it is a shorter sentence or a longer sentence, support and guidance needs to be provided as well as retribution, along with support once people leave prison. That is not always available, in many cases even for people serving longer sentences than a couple of months. It is a matter which has to be addressed.
	If I have one other reservation about the amendment it is that, paradoxically, it might push magistrates in the wrong direction from the point of view of the mover of the amendment. They might feel that rather than being obliged to give reasons for imposing short sentences, they could go the whole hog, as it were, and impose longer sentences. I am not sure whether the noble Baroness or other noble Lords would welcome that, but it is a temptation that might present itself in certain circumstances. I have just that one reservation.

Lord Faulks: Although I accept the general points made by the noble Lord about the general undesirability of short sentences, does he accept that there are some cases where the clang of the prison door really is the only answer for repeated minor offences? Notwithstanding all the valuable points about how little can be achieved, something can sometimes be achieved in some circumstances by the very fact of incarceration.

Lord Beecham: I think that that is right, and indeed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said very much the same. It is quite possible, within the ambit of the amendment, to achieve that objective. There may well be cases where what some call the "short sharp shock" may work. I think it will work in probably only a relatively small number of cases, but the option should certainly be open.
	As I say, I have some reservations about the second amendment, but I wholly endorse the first one. This is a matter that we need to continue to evaluate, but above all we need to ensure that the probation service in particular is given the resources that it needs to work with offenders so as to avoid not only the social and individual harm that is done, but also the enormous cost to the public purse of reoffending, where the rates remain unduly high.

Lord McNally: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all those who have contributed to this debate. It has been an extremely useful one. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for reminding us that this is the 200th birthday of Charles Dickens, who gave us the most well-known phrase about the law: "The law is an ass". He also gave us the best example of the futility of litigation in Bleak House. Dickens was certainly not in awe of the law, and very few of his legal characters are particularly warm.

Lord Bach: The noble Lord is being a bit unfair towards Charles Dickens himself. I may be wrong about this, but I think he put the expression, "The law is an ass", in the mouth of Mr Bumble in Oliver Twist. He is hardly the most sympathetic character in the whole of Dickens.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I shall add that he was saying it in the context of a married woman, who had no separate identity in those days. She was regarded as a part of her husband.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: Hear, hear!

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I do not know if my noble friend is agreeing with the proposition, but in these more enlightened days we would all agree that the law on that particular aspect was an ass.

Lord McNally: I live and learn. I shall make the point, though, that the phrase, "The law is an ass", is used more widely than just in terms of the marital relations referred to by my noble friend Lord Thomas. But I digress.

A noble Lord: You started it.

Lord McNally: Yes, I started it, but in terms of the quality of the debate, to have a sitting magistrate and a former Lord Chief Justice along with everything in between reflects the range of the debate we have had. I can only say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that providing a copy of Hansard for every judge and magistrate would, in these straitened times, be beyond the Ministry of Justice. However, it is an interesting idea, and of course magistrates can now go online to read our words, so they should certainly do that.
	Where I can follow the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Ramsbotham, and others, is in paying tribute to my noble friend Lady Linklater. She invites the term "do-gooder", and it is a proud badge to wear. She is a wise, realistic and practical do-gooder, and that is why I personally benefit from her advice, as does this House. I should also say that my own commitment to both the magistracy and the probation service is as strong as that of any Member of this House. I believe that both are very important parts of our criminal justice system.
	I listened to what my noble friend said about the need for information to be shared between probation officers and magistrates and of course I agree that that is important. But coming back again to a comment made in our earlier debate, I am not convinced that this aim actually requires a legislative provision. I welcome and encourage the sharing of information by probation trusts with magistrates. This already happens in a number of ways. Some are formal and relate to individual cases. For example, when probation supplies a pre-sentence report, the probation staff will outline for the court the suitability of an offender for a particular programme or requirement and also the availability of that programme in the local area. There are existing liaison arrangements at both national and local level. At national level, a forum meets quarterly, bringing sentencers, probation and Ministry of Justice officials together to allow for the sharing of information on the national picture.
	I was interested to hear of the experience of noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, of local liaison meetings. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, will not mind me saying that, in private conversation, she has expressed the view that such local liaison meetings have fallen into disuse.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: Perhaps I could put the record straight. It is not that they have fallen into disuse, but that they are no longer common practice throughout the country. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, is nodding his head. There are some areas where they are alive and well, and others, probably in the majority, where they are either very poor or non-existent.

Lord McNally: I am grateful for that clarification, because I think that such meetings are important. When we discussed this matter previously, it was suggested that a bar to the effectiveness of the meetings might be that magistrates who engage with the work of probation trusts are unable to claim expenses to attend liaison or other meetings with probation. I am happy to say that Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service is already looking at, and plans to consult on, some of these issues relating to magistrates' expenses. I suggest that a better approach, working with the Magistrates' Association, Bench chairs and the senior judiciary, would be to come to a practical solution rather than create more statutory requirements
	There are arrangements for local liaison meetings, and I hope that what I have just said helps to plug some of the gaps that the noble Baroness just referred to. The arrangements are governed by a protocol issued by the senior presiding judge setting out the parameters for any discussions between magistrates and probation. A protocol exists because there is a need to ensure that there is no suggestion that sentencers have been influenced by probation priorities or resourcing decisions. The existing arrangements therefore allow for flexibility, with due propriety, as to what should be discussed.
	I am not aware of any particular problems with probation trusts supplying information to the judiciary. If any noble Lords are aware of any problems, I would be grateful for details which I could follow up. I certainly think that magistrates should be encouraged to visit both prisons and probation regularly and not just as part of their initial training. I am not aware of any obstacle to them doing so. I do not therefore consider that there is any need for a new statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor to make arrangements for magistrates to visit.
	Amendment 176ZB seeks to deal with the different issue of the use of short custodial sentences. The amendment would place a duty on courts to consider all alternatives before imposing a short custodial term. It would also require the court, if imposing a short custodial sentence, to explain why alternative sentences were not considered appropriate. I understand the intention behind the amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has argued, short custodial sentences can be less effective in tackling reoffending than community sentences. They can mean that an offender during their short time in prison loses their employment and accommodation, all of which is a hindrance to their rehabilitation.
	We are about to start a consultation on the effectiveness of community sentences. We are not simply pushing them as a replacement for prison but are hoping to provide sentencers with a much improved community sentence, offering a robust and credible punishment that will have the confidence of sentencers, victims and the public. Although I understand the points that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, made about the treatment of sentencing in some of our media, unless we have public confidence in non-custodial sentences we will have criticism of them. We have to win that public confidence. We will publish a consultation document shortly. We are also running payment-by-result pilots, looking at ways to support offenders on release from short custodial sentences.
	There are now shorter programmes on drug and alcohol treatment requirements as part of a community order. The Bill gives more discretion for dealing with breaches of orders; for example, allowing for fines for minor breaches. The system is therefore not as rigid as might be suggested.
	It must be clear that the Government have never advocated that short custodial sentences be not available to a court where the offence or the offender merits such a sentence; for example, where the offence is so serious that only a custodial sentence, even a short one, is justified or where an offender has a history of previous convictions or continued breaches of community orders.
	Like many noble Lords, I came to this issue initially with great suspicion of short sentences because of the inability to build into them any kind of rehabilitation content. However, it has been put to me on my travels and in this House that a short sentence sometimes gives a community respite from somebody who is making their life hell, and the clang of the prison door, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, may just straighten that person out. It has also been put to me that, in certain cases of persistent domestic violence, a custodial sentence may give a wife-usually-the chance to rebuild and reorganise her life. Therefore, although the case against short sentences is strong, we intend to retain them.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I do not quite follow my noble friend's reasoned argumentation, because Amendment 176ZB, put forward by my noble friend Lady Linklater, does not prohibit shorts sentences but states that if a short sentence is imposed a court must give reasons. That seems in line with what the Minister was saying previously.

Lord McNally: That is why the amendment is not necessary. Since a number of noble Lords had referred to the damaging elements of short sentences, I thought that it was worth putting on the record that, as a lay man in all this, I have had pointed out to me by people with considerable experience areas where the short sentence is effective. I certainly acknowledge that my noble friend said as much in her introduction. Her amendment is not an attempt to prohibit short custodial sentences; rather it seeks to create a kind of presumption that a short custodial sentence will not be imposed unless the alternatives are considered and found to be inappropriate. Such a statutory provision already exists. Section 152 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 places restrictions on imposing discretionary custodial sentences. Section 152(2) sets out what is sometimes called the "custodial threshold", the test that has to be met before a custodial sentence can be imposed:
	"The court must not pass a custodial sentence unless it is of the opinion that the offence, or the combination of the offence and one or more offences associated with it, was so serious that neither a fine alone or a community sentence can be justified for the offence".
	That is the current situation. I suggest to my noble friend that the current requirement is stronger and more wide-ranging than that proposed in this amendment.
	I welcome a reminder of the importance of imposing short custodial sentences in essence as a last resort. I see, as I have always done, the full importance of rehabilitation. However, I do not think that this amendment adds significantly to the current law. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, would the Minister seriously consider the suggestion by my noble friend Lady Linklater about the proper liaison between the probation service and the magistrate? I chair a commission by the Magistrates' Association on the future of summary justice. Evidence has been taken from across the country. What comes out very clearly is the extent to which there is effectively good rapport where you have good liaison between the magistracy and the probation liaison committees or probation officers. But there are a number of areas within the country where that does not happen. Could the Minister establish in which areas magistrates' courts have proper liaison? If that information does not exist, would he issue guidelines so that they can be recommended good practice for this continuous liaison, which is in the interests of both justice and the offender?

Lord McNally: If there is anybody I take even more notice of in these matters than my noble friend Lady Linklater, it is my noble friend Lord Dholakia. I will take away that suggestion. As I said, we are looking at the question of expenses in helping to grease the wheels of better liaison. If my noble friend's suggestion is feasible, I am sure that we can take it forward. I will certainly take it away and think about it.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I would be interested if the Minister could encourage the presiding judges of each circuit around the country to carry out an audit of what the situation is in their particular circuit. The presiding judges have a great deal of influence and control over the way that the judicial system works within their bailiwick. Requiring each presiding judge to be in charge of such an investigation is a better way to go about it than starting from the centre-from London-and working outward.

Lord McNally: I am not sure what my powers are in instructing, advising or making requests of presiding judges. I suspect that the present Lord Chief Justice might start breathing down my neck. I note what my noble friend has suggested and I will take that back to think about.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extraordinarily interesting and well informed debate, which is really important for how we will take things forward in future. I will whizz through some of the very helpful comments that were made.
	The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is always very wise. He said such nice things about me that I could only cap them with my endless admiration for him. He pointed out how important the individual is-the hand held out to lead somebody out of a dark place where we have possibly stuck them. Sharing experiences is of unbelievable importance. I must get the Dickens quotation from him. I know exactly what he means about the press exacerbating the problems of crime.
	The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is the voice of such wisdom and experience. The idea of a prospectus across the services is very good. Is it not interesting that we do not have such a thing? If sentences were linked to behavioural progress, that would make those kinds of targets meaningful instead of being independent of each other.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, is my hero. He said that he knew that sentencing was not working well when he was in charge. That showed great honesty and insight. Of course, we both agree that there are times when certain sentences, including custody, are the one appropriate disposal. We accept that. The idea that some of these arguments could make a difference is a wonderful and extraordinary thing. I hope that everybody heard the range of the arguments we have had today.
	I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for what he said. I am not sure that I entirely approve of the idea of using custody as the appropriate sanction for a breach. If a community sentence is not working, maybe the community sentence could be reviewed rather than saying, "This has not worked; we must go for breach".

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: I certainly think that community sentences can be reviewed and beefed up in some way. We have very clear guidelines on that point. The only point I made was that the vast majority of short custodial sentences that I give are for breaches and maybe multiple breaches. That was my only point.

Lord McNally: My noble friend Lady Linklater was on the point about community sentences made by the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Ponsonby. Probation staff can take back to court offenders who have made significant progress on their requirements in a community sentence. Provision in Clause 62 clarifies the position when community orders come to an end and requirements have been completed. It is already there for community sentences. As I said, we will also consult more on making community sentences effective.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: I thank my noble friend for that and for the clarification. It is very good news that that is being taken forward.
	I listened to and heard what the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said on the importance of post-prison support. He suggested that the clang of the prison door might have some effect. I do not really believe that, and the evidence for it is not substantial enough to actually influence policy. I have gone into a cell and heard a prison door clang on me. Even when I have not-to my knowledge-done anything too terrible, that is unpleasant but I question whether it changes the lives of people who are probably already in a very bad place.
	Finally, I respond to the Minister. I am not very happy with "do-gooder", if he does not mind. I am glad that he is pro magistrates and probation. I reiterate that there are some places where liaison committees exist and work well. Yet, if the reality was that the provision was in place and working well, I would not be here, nor would the Magistrates' Association, the Probation Service and all the others behind me. There is a real sense of a need to beef up and put on some statutory basis the provision that will facilitate this and make the things that we know we need to have in place happen properly. If it was adequate as it is, I would not be here; the fact is that there is a severe deficit in what we are trying to do to make this society a safer and better place, and to make the way we work with offenders more constructive, effective and cost-effective. The fact is that 67 per cent of people on short prison sentences reoffend-that is over two-thirds-and £7.1 billion a year is wasted on sustaining and dealing with the results of such offenders. That is a very important thing, which I hope that my noble friend the Minister will not forget.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I apologise for not being here for the earlier part of the debate. Would my noble friend agree that one should insert an additional factor into the argument-that the vast majority of people who are sentenced to short terms of imprisonment have mental health issues? If we had a stronger community mental health sector, they should not be in custody; they should be in residential or community mental health care.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: I thank my noble friend for that, and regard it as very remiss of me for not having mentioned it earlier.
	I have listened to what my noble friend Lord McNally said, and am delighted to hear that further investigations into certain things on the justice front, such as community sentences, are being taken forward. That will be very important. I will ponder what he has said until we return at Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 176ZAA, in substitution for Amendment 176ZA, withdrawn.
	Amendment 176ZB not moved.
	Clause 62 agreed.
	Clause 63 : Breach of community order
	Amendment 176A
	 Moved by Lord Ramsbotham
	176A: Clause 63, page 47, line 6, at end insert-
	"(c) omit sub-paragraph (c)"

Lord Ramsbotham: I shall be very brief. Sub-paragraph (1)(c) of Paragraph 9 of Schedule 8 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003, to which these two amendments refer, allows a court to sentence an offender to custody for breach of a community order even though the original sentence was non-imprisonable. Figures published in 2009 show that 3,996 people were received into prison for a breach of such a community sentence-

Lord Bach: This is an important point that the noble Lord is making, but I wonder whether he is right in saying that sub-paragraph (1)(c) refers to being in breach of a community order. It refers to a person who,
	"has wilfully and persistently failed to comply".
	It is the difference between those two that is quite important here. I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord so early in what he has to say.

Lord Ramsbotham: I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I am speaking about the breach, and I will come to my conclusion if I may. I am not talking about inconsiderable numbers. There is nothing meaningful that can be done in prison to prevent a person from breaching a community order, so what such people are doing merely exacerbates the main problem facing our prisons at considerable expense and to no good effect.
	I am very conscious of the problems facing the magistrates. Those problems were very ably set out by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. I refer particularly to the effects of this on the Prison Service ever since the 2003 Act and the increased numbers of people in prison merely for breaching a community order. I personally welcome the flexibility that Clause 63 allows, in that a court dealing with breaches now has new options of taking no action or fining. However, the clause does not provide enough protection for the Prison Service, which is why I am tabling the two amendments, deleting the sub-paragraph and inviting the Minister to consider that the powers to resentence someone to custody for breach should be awarded only if the original sentence was an imprisonable one. I beg to move.

Lord Bach: My Lords, in many of his amendments I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and I hope to do so later this evening, but on my understanding of his argument here I find it difficult to accept the amendment on behalf of the Opposition.
	I shall make a general point. This is not a government amendment-but when there are government amendments dealing with a different Act, as in the case of this Bill, where we are amending the Criminal Justice Act 2003, Keeling schedules, which set out what the amended 2003 Act would look like if we passed this legislation, are incredibly helpful. Indeed, when we were in government, the opposition on all sides used to ask us where the Keeling schedules were-and they were often there. In this Bill, later on tonight or whenever we reach the 17th group, there are very helpful Keeling schedules in important government amendments. But they do not exist elsewhere, as far as I can see, although the Minister has been helpful in writing to noble Lords about government amendments. There is a value in having Keeling schedules in that the House can understand what is being amended.
	The Criminal Justice Act 2003 states:
	"If it is proved to the satisfaction of a magistrates' court before which an offender appears or is brought under paragraph 7 that he has failed without reasonable excuse to comply with any of the requirements of the community order, the court must deal with him in respect of the failure in any one of the following ways".
	The Bill changes that "must" to "may". The following ways include,
	"amending the terms of the community order so as to impose more onerous requirements",
	and,
	"where the community order was made by a magistrates' court, by dealing with him, for the offence in respect of which the order was made, in any way in which the court could deal with him if he had just been convicted by it of the offence".
	I know that the noble Lord has no objection to those provisions, as amended by this Bill. It is sub-paragraph (1)(c) that his complaint is with. That sub-paragraph is not just about a breach. It refers to,
	"where-
	(i) the community order was made by a magistrates' court,
	(ii) the offence in respect of which the order was made was not an offence punishable by imprisonment"-
	that is the noble Lord's point. It goes on to refer to,
	"(iii) the offender is aged 18 or over, and
	(iv) the offender"-
	and these are the crucial words-
	"has wilfully and persistently failed to comply with the requirements of the order ... by dealing with him, in respect of that offence, by imposing a sentence of imprisonment for a term not exceeding",
	six months.
	Provided that the Bill reads "may" rather than "must", I can see nothing wrong with that. The danger is that someone who is given a community service order for an offence for which there is no imprisonment can get away for ever in breaching community service orders to the extent that he wilfully and persistently fails to comply, and the court will never have the power to deprive that person of their liberty. I agree with the Minister's point from earlier that if community orders are to succeed-we want them to succeed because they are vital-they must be, in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, "robust" community orders. There must be something there, eventually, if someone wilfully and persistently fails to comply with them. It is not just a breach in sub-paragraph (1)(c), but a wilful and persistent failure to comply, which is a step beyond a breach. Clearly, it is more than one breach; one breach would not be enough. Two might be-three might well me. In those circumstances, my case-I may be wrong about this-is that if we agree to these amendments, the result would be that someone who was given a community order for an offence that was not in itself subject to imprisonment could never be sent to prison, however wilfully and persistently he failed to comply with it. On this issue, which I concede is not a major one, I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for his support on this, the first group of amendments that I am dealing with on this Bill. That is extremely welcome. Maybe the issue to which he refers rather reflects upon the quantity of legislation that this House has dealt with over a number of years. I absolutely take his point about the need for clarity and for linking Bills one to another.
	I will seek to clarify what we understand these two amendments would do and why we resist them. They would repeal some of the provisions giving powers to both magistrates' courts and the Crown Court to deal with breach of a community order. The provisions that the amendments propose to repeal give the courts the power to imprison offenders for serious breach of community orders which have been imposed for offences which do not carry imprisonment. Noble Lords agree on that.
	As it so happens, community orders cannot currently be imposed for offences which do not carry imprisonment, so these provisions may appear to be redundant and I can appreciate why the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, might have tabled these amendments. However, they were certainly needed in the past and it was only in 2008 that the community order stopped being available for non-imprisonable offences. Before then, a community sentence could be imposed for a non-imprisonable offence. When that happened, these provisions were the only way that a breach could be dealt with-by sending the offender to prison-so however serious the breach, there would have been no custodial disposal without these measures. As I have noted, since 2008 there has on the face of it been no further need for them to remain on the statute book because they are, in practice, no longer necessary.
	However, it is not quite as straightforward as that, complex though that may seem. There is an unimplemented provision in Section 151 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 which, if it were commenced, would allow the courts to impose a community order on a persistent offender, in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has spelt out, who has at least three previous fines, even if the offence they committed was not serious enough to cross the community sentence threshold. If that provision in Section 151 were to be implemented, it would become possible once more for a community order to be imposed for an offence which did not carry imprisonment.
	It follows that we would therefore need the provisions which the noble Lord's amendments would repeal to ensure that a persistent offender who gets a community order because they have received at least three fines could be penalised by imprisonment in case of breach. Effectively, these two measures go together. While we retain the sentencing power, even if it is not in force, we also need the breach power. I should perhaps say that we have no intention at present to implement the sentencing power but, as I have explained, while this is still an option, we need the breach power against the possibility that it might happen in the future.

Lord Bach: I follow the noble Baroness's argument, which she has made very clearly. Indeed, I was not aware that the law was changed in 2008 so that non-imprisonable offences could not receive a community order, but I see the noble Baroness's way around that. However, to describe it as a breach power seems to be wrong on the basis of how the 2003 Act is phrased. It refers to a person who,
	"wilfully and persistently failed to comply".
	In one sense, that is about a breach but not a breach on one occasion. It is the court having to find that there has been a wilful and persistent failure to comply and I hate to see that lessened to a mere breach, if I may call it that.

Baroness Northover: I heard what the noble Lord said and was very interested in the points that he made. Perhaps it is best if I come back to him to clarify that point. In the mean time, I hope that after this incredibly clear explanation-

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My noble friend will recall that it was part of the vaunt of the coalition that the statute book would be tidied up so that there were far fewer redundant statutes. There are in fact hundreds and hundreds, possibly thousands, of redundant statutory provisions-I have a book of them upstairs by my desk. Given that this has not been brought into force now for nine years, in the spirit of clear statute-making would it not be better simply to repeal the original provision and, if the Government wished to have something like it in the future, to introduce that in a proper way in a Bill?

Baroness Northover: My Lords, that is exactly what I asked and I was assured that in fact the Government wanted to keep the possibility of this being implemented. We therefore need to make sure that it is, as it were, complete.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My noble friend clearly did not understand what I was suggesting: that it is, to put it plainly, senseless to have something on the statute book nine years after it was enacted, with absolutely no intention of bringing it into force.

Lord Avebury: This is from 2008.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: No, this provision is from 2003 and it has not been brought into force for nine years. Is the right answer to this not to repeal the 2003 provision in question? If the Government then have some constructive suggestions for imposing imprisonment, if it be merited, on people who have been given a community sentence, why do we not start again with those provisions? In reality, my noble friend is not going to suggest for one moment that the Government will bring this redundant provision into force.

Baroness Northover: I assure my noble friend that in fact I understood him very clearly the first time. I asked, as this was introduced in 2003, changed in 2008 but not complete, why we would not seek to repeal it. However, I was told that the Government wish to retain this, in the possibility that it might be implemented-although with no intention of doing that at the moment. I fully support what he says about trying to rationalise legislation in all areas, and I worked very hard on the companies legislation, the first elements of which were finally rationalised relatively recently, after 100 years. I realise that these things can take a long time, but I take very much the point that legislation needs clarity. However, I hope that in this instance the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, will understand what I am arguing here and be willing to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Avebury: May I ask my noble friend what may be a naive question? If the provision to which this is attached has not been brought into force but the Government require it to remain on the statute book in case it is necessary at some future date, why is the provision that we are discussing not also subject to a statutory instrument to bring it into force at the same time?

Baroness Northover: In answer to my noble friend, I expect that it will be necessary that this is in legislation, whereas the implementing would not require further legislation. This is therefore a time to tidy up something which was left untidy.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response and intrigued with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I am grateful to him for those and for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. As I rather suspected, this simple amendment has disclosed that there is a need to examine the clarity of the legislation regarding breach, while absolutely accepting the problems faced by magistrates. I very deliberately did not include "wilfully and persistently" regarding a breach, because that was not what I was after. Wilful and persistent was covered deliberately by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, in her contribution.
	There is merit in doing this, though; as I said, we are talking about the sentences but we must also consider what is going to happen to the person who has committed the breach and what the impact will be on the prison service. In our overcrowded prisons, there are currently vast numbers of people serving sentences for a breach since the 2003 Act. It was a small number before but it has become large, and there is nothing meaningful that can be done with them. That really is a waste of time and money, accepting that the magistrates have to do something. This should be thought through, which I hope is what the Minister will take away from this short debate. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 176A withdrawn.
	Amendment 176B not moved.
	Clause 63 agreed.
	Clause 64 agreed.
	Schedule 9 agreed.
	Clause 65 agreed.
	Amendment 177 not moved.
	Amendment 177ZA had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
	Clause 66 agreed.
	Clause 67 : Curfew requirement
	Debate on whether Clause 67 should stand part of the Bill.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, Clauses 67 and 75 refer to the maximum extension of curfews from 12 hours to 16, and from a maximum period of six months to 12, the first of the two referring to adults and the second to children and young people. I have a particular concern over Clause 75, which refers to children, although there are issues common to both it and Clause 67, which, as I have just said, refers to adults.
	The background to this is that curfews are one of the requirements of a community order where the offender is required to remain at a specified place for a specified period and is monitored by a tag that is administered by one of two private companies. The MoJ estimates that about 24,000 people are being electronically monitored at any one time, of whom it is estimated that-this is all I can say at this point-a significant proportion are children.
	The application of a curfew can be used selectively by magistrates, who have the power to split the times across the day-for example, when children are coming out of school-or to prohibit an offender from a football match, from being out in the evenings or from being with a group of troublemaking friends. It therefore gives the court the opportunity to use the sanction in a selective and targeted way. As such, we support the current curfews as having a useful role in the armoury of the available sanctions, particularly for adults.
	The official reason for these clauses and the extension of hours and months is to increase significantly the punitive element of the sanction, supposedly giving the public a sense of greater security and safety, and in the expectation that this would not restrict employment unduly. All of that I find unconvincing, particularly, as I said earlier, as punishment must also have a positive purpose.
	The new propositions leave many questions unanswered about the need and whether any real added value is entailed that would justify such a draconian change or the potential difficulties or damage likely to be encountered on the way, and whether there is any evidence of how it is likely to reduce reoffending.
	A curfew is sometimes described as a form of house arrest. The new provision could in theory allow a person on a curfew to leave home for up to only eight hours a day for a whole year. Does that sound possible or proportionate? I think not. We need to know more before such potentially draconian measures are adopted. Without such evidence, I urge the Minister to delete these clauses from the Bill.
	Proportionality is part of our system of law. It is fundamental that we do not tinker with our criminal justice system simply to be more punitive or tough for its own sake. The Government argue that a more punitive order would serve as a suitable disposal as an alternative to custody for more serious offenders, but the Ministry of Justice has not yet produced any evidence that such a disproportionate sanction-a year-long sanction-would work, what offences it might be relevant for or whether magistrates would in fact use a longer curfew as part of a community sentence for those offenders whom they could currently sentence to custody. It is much more probable that, over time, the timescales of 12 hours and six months could slide up to 16 hours and 12 months, but either way the case has simply not been made. For adults, this is likely significantly to disrupt employment opportunities or caring responsibilities, and for those with drug and alcohol issues, maintaining treatment or support will become seriously more difficult. These are the people affected by Clause 65.
	I turn to Clause 75, an identical clause that applies to children. As with adults, one of the problems is that comprehensive data on curfews are not available. However, a piece of work published by the Prison Reform Trust called Into the Breach-this might have been relevant to our earlier discussions-which looked at the enforcement of statutory orders in the youth justice system, found that in one YOT 23 per cent of orders were breached and the proportion for breach of curfews was 70 per cent. That was just one sample, but breach is the clearest evidence of whether any sanction has been succeeding, so it is important.
	I understand that there are some unpublished data from an electronic monitoring provider showing that from a sample of 3,902 children fewer than 50 per cent completed their curfew without breaching and, of those who breached, three-quarters had been absent from the address that they were tagged to. Also, the longer the length of the curfew, the higher the breach-thus a curfew of up to 14 days had a compliance rate of 62 per cent, but that fell to 23 per cent for a curfew of 90 days or more. This seems to be enough to suggest that much more comprehensive evidence is needed before decisions are taken to extend a sanction that we know so little about.
	What we know already is that children who get caught up in the criminal justice system are those who are already dealing with a range of deficits in their lives. Their home lives are often chaotic and their performance and attendance at school is often poor, many being excluded or at risk of exclusion and finding learning problematic. Gang life in these situations becomes more likely, while drugs and drink are available. Those children who are in hostels or some sort of independent living will find a curfew particularly difficult with no support at home.
	Unsurprisingly, we know that where parents are actively involved in helping, children are more likely to succeed. That might mean keeping notes about meetings, getting the children up in the morning or having their friends over when they cannot go out. The problem with curfews is that, while they remain a useful short-term sanction for the courts, they are really difficult for children whose lives are already so difficult at home, when the reason they are on the streets in the first place is to avoid home. Equally tragic is when children who are in care on a voluntary accommodated order try to visit their own home and are breached because the address for their tag is the children's home. What an irony. Curfews do not address difficulties such as why the children have offended or, more importantly, how to help them to stop. Curfews control their movements, but there is no automatic, external support along with the tag to comply with the curfew, or any proactive involvement from youth offending teams. This is a proposal which sets them up to fail-nothing more and nothing less. In accepting it, we would be failing our children.
	The evidence demonstrates that while curfews are a useful way of using a community-based sanction in the selective and targeted way that magistrates do at present-which is, anyway, more relevant to adults but carries the same caveats-it would be a serious mistake to increase the length of time and number of hours without the benefit of much more comprehensive evidence of the success or failure, advantages or damage, of the proposed timescales and the extent to which they can possibly achieve the key target, which we all seek-the reduction of reoffending, not breach or failure, which is the more possible outcome of these proposals.
	As they stand, the clauses could theoretically mean that a child would have to be at home for 16 hours a day for a whole year. That is hardly proportionate, nor, I suggest, rational. If there is little expectation that such provisions will really be used, they should not be in the Bill in the first place. For children and adults alike, the likelihood that such sanctions will create rather than solve problems and inevitably be unsustainable is inescapable, thereby making breach, reoffending and the whole cycle ratchet up as we set the bar impossibly high.
	I say to my noble friend the Minister that as the evidence is lacking-in particular, where children are concerned, the risk of further failure is very real-will she seriously consider deleting Clauses 67 and 75 from the Bill?

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I put my name to the stand part debate for exactly the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has outlined. In his letter to us of 12 December, the Minister said that a curfew can be an effective tool in punishing offenders, preventing reoffending and giving respite to victims. At the same time, the National Audit Office said in a report that such curfews were a problem for employment and could pose real barriers to people finding work. That seems to be the antithesis of preventing reoffending through helping people to live purposeful lives.
	I have two comments, one about Clause 67 and one about Clause 75. There is a particular problem with women who are disproportionately affected by such increases, especially if they have children. I cannot believe that this has been thought through.
	The other people I am particularly concerned about are those with mental health problems. They certainly do not need to be locked up under virtual house arrest-they need the stimulus of company and everything that goes with it. Again, I do not think that extending such a curfew for a year would serve any useful purpose.
	I will always remember visiting young offender institutions where the youngsters were locked up all day, and watching what happened when they were let out for an hour at about 6 pm. They were just like puppies, all over each other. The prison staff, who did not know how to handle this, called it assault. It was not-it was the letting off of the adolescent steam which is a normal part of growing up. Locking up youngsters who come from a dysfunctional family, living in a small number of rooms, surrounded by others, for 16 hours a day for a year, is not a civilised way of coping with the problem. It is punishment, punishment, punishment, to the exclusion of civilisation.
	The present system, which has a 12-hour curfew lasting six months, is in many ways causing the problems which the National Audit Office has commented on. Therefore, an extension would make things worse. As the noble Baroness said, we are setting these people up to breach the curfew, and then all we will do is make the problem worse. So I beg the Minister seriously to consider this extension and preferably to omit these clauses from the Bill.

Baroness Stern: I support the proposal that the clauses should not stand part of the Bill and the comments of the previous two speakers. Liberty has sent me a very helpful brief which I will be using. I declare my interest as a trustee of the Civil Liberties Trust.
	Liberty points out in its brief that the Green Paper which led to this Bill envisaged that if there were tougher community sentences, prison would be used less because those sentences would be used instead. This is indeed a worthy idea, but I point out to the Minister that it is supported by absolutely no evidence whatever. Making community sentences tougher instead of making them more positive, rehabilitative and socially useful, simply adds to the number of such sentences and leads to more failure and imprisonment.
	On the extension of curfews, it is hard to envisage a beneficial effect on the normal life of a curfewed person. How can a curfewed person become interested in going to work or jobseeking? How can they become involved in caring for a relative or in some activity which will take them away from crime? A curfew is a very blunt instrument with very little penal value. Has thought been given to the effect on the rest of the family? What will the effect be on the other siblings who may be on the straight and narrow and have to spend all their time in the house with the one member of the family who has been deemed not to be on the straight and narrow? What will be the effect on the family if it is the father who has to stay at home for 16 hours for 12 months? That person may spend his time at home drinking, so what happens to his wife and children? These points apply especially to the impact of curfews on children. Surely this measure will be a real hindrance to normal teenage development. It is hard to envisage anything else.
	What is the objective of these clauses in terms of ensuring a more effective criminal justice system? In the other place, the Minister said that they would give courts more flexibility. But the flexibility to increase a curfew from 12 hours to 16 or six months to 12 seems more like punitiveness. If it is to give an impression of toughness, I would counsel the Minister against this. The public will not register the difference between 12 and 16 hours and six and 12 months. As a result, more people will fail and the public will then say, "There you are-he should have gone to prison. These non-custodial sentences never work".
	Finally, it might also be worth bearing in mind the cost. These proposals come with a price tag. In terms of change, rehabilitation, giving up drugs and alcohol and developing a social conscience, they add nothing. There are many better ways of spending money.

Lord Beecham: My Lords, I strongly endorse the proposal of the noble Baroness that both clauses should be deleted from the Bill and the criticisms of the clauses that she and other noble Lords have made. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, has just referred to a statement made by the Prisons and Probation Minister in the House of Commons, in which he argued that this 33.3 per cent increase in the hours of the curfew and the 100 per cent increase in the maximum period over which such a curfew might be imposed-from six to 12 months-would enable the court to use curfews "creatively and flexibly". However, there is potential for flexibility in the present system. That is not to say that one is entirely convinced by the present system but even it makes it clear that the 12 hours do not have to be a single period; they do not have to be consecutive. They can be in two or more blocks if the court thinks that is right. The curfew can be for a longer period at weekends than during the week. An element of flexibility is currently available.
	I have yet to hear of an evidence base for this proposed change. What has persuaded the Government that a change of this kind will be effective? For that matter, what leads the Government to think that the present system is all that effective? We have heard from my noble friend Lord Ponsonby-no doubt rightly-that he spends much of his time dealing with breaches of community orders, of which this would be one, and sending people to prison for short sentences. It seems that the effect of these amendments would be to place a larger number of people on a conveyor belt to his court and other courts, and thence to prison, with consequences that have hardly been calculated.
	A 12-hour curfew is difficult enough. It would be very difficult for anyone with a job, voluntary work or training to fit them in with a 16-hour curfew. It would make it virtually impossible for anyone to travel any kind of distance to work or some other establishment. That cannot be consistent with the aim of getting people-in this case mainly adults-into employment, which is one of the principal ways of avoiding reoffending.
	As the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, has pointed out, the curfew is effectively a negative form of community sentence. For community sentencing to be effective it ought to be positive, for example through community pay-back and restorative justice, which we will come to on later amendments. This is simply temporary containment. Indeed, one wonders what the effect will be of children being cooped up in the dysfunctional homes from which too many unfortunately come, and which are probably at the root of their problems in the first place.
	I do not know whether the Government propose any assessment of the impact of the current system, let alone-if these clauses stand part and the Bill goes unamended-of the lengthened periods that these two clauses would impose. A proper evaluation should be made before proceeding with any change in either direction, but I am not aware that any such evaluation has taken place or is being planned. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us. The figure for the number of breaches that the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, cited at the beginning hardly suggests that the system is all that effective, particularly for children.
	This is very much a retrograde change. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred to Dickens earlier. I feel that this is almost a Dickensian proposal and one that we should not be developing in the bicentenary of that great writer. I think he would have had some pointed things to say about this type of legislation, and rightly so. I hope that the Government will think again and not press the changes that have been so effectively criticised by Members of the Committee and those outside.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, Clauses 67 and 75 would enable a court to impose longer curfew requirements as part of a community order, a suspended sentence order or a youth rehabilitation order. The clauses would allow the court to impose a curfew of up to 16 hours a day for a duration of up to 12 months. Enabling the courts to impose longer curfews in this way will make the community order capable of being more punitive and attractive as a suitable disposal for more serious offenders, possibly some who might otherwise have gone to prison. It will also increase the confidence of the public, who too often see community sentences as insufficiently demanding. No doubt these issues will be much debated in this House, but I am very glad that noble Lords support the principle of doing what we can to keep people out of prison. We all know the drivers of that.
	We believe that increasing the maximum number of hours of curfew per day will give the courts more scope to use community orders imaginatively to punish offenders, protect the public and encourage compliance.

Lord Beecham: Wherein lies the imaginative use of these orders? Where is the imagination?

Baroness Northover: Perhaps we should leave that to those who are curfewed. For example, a curfew period of 16 hours will enable courts to curfew offenders for 12 hours overnight, as often happens now, but also to add a further period. This is designed to ensure that the offender is at home immediately before a community pay-back session to increase the likelihood of their turning up on time. More seriously, that illustrates the point that I just made about how this could be teamed with something else that the court wishes to achieve. If the curfew is timed so that the person will be at home before the community pay-back session, that is an imaginative way of using it. A young person attending school will need less restriction during the school week but could have their movements more tightly restricted at weekends, when they are at greatest risk of reoffending. That is another point.
	I am aware that the Prison Reform Trust does not share this view and believes that the courts already have sufficient flexibility to impose curfews. I know that this belief has been endorsed by the Bar Council. Both have commented on their particular concerns about the impact of these changes on children. While I understand these concerns, it should be remembered that the new curfew limits are maxima. They will be imposed only where such a requirement is, as the law requires, the most suitable for the offender and where the sentence is proportionate to the seriousness of the offence. In respect of under-18s, we expect the longer curfews to be used sparingly and that courts will take their age into account. It will be the court that decides whether and how to use this option.
	My noble friend Lady Linklater makes the case for when lengthy curfews would be disproportionate. Doubtless the court would see that in the relevant cases. The kind of aspects that my noble friend mentioned would be raised in court and taken into consideration.
	Compliance with curfew is normally monitored electronically through the offender wearing a tag. This will not change. Indeed, we are exploring ways of making more use of electronic monitoring as the technology becomes more sophisticated and robust. None of the existing safeguards will change. Courts will still be required by law to ensure that the restrictions on liberty imposed by any community order are commensurate with the seriousness of the offence, so longer curfews may be more suitable for more serious offenders. It will remain the case that before imposing a curfew requirement, the court will have to consider what the effect of the curfew might be on the person themselves and their individual needs and circumstances and on other people living at the curfew address. With longer curfews being available, it will be even more important that the courts take account of the needs and views of the family members before setting the curfew hours. Youth offending teams will assess the suitability of the home address for curfew purposes. They will make a recommendation to the court on what length of curfew is appropriate. We would expect that any longer length and duration of curfew would be focused on older children where the alternative might be custody.
	The point was made that longer curfews would interfere with work and children's education. The law requires that all community order requirements, including curfews, should, as far as possible, avoid interfering with an offender's work and education. I hope that that will reassure people. We believe that giving courts the power to impose longer curfews will contribute to realising the aim of making non-custodial sentences tougher and more demanding. In doing so, we hope that they will command greater confidence among sentencers and the public.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: I thank everybody who has participated in the debate. Consensus on this issue has broken out loudly and strongly with one unfortunate exception. I understand entirely where my noble friend is coming from and I do not envy her taking that position. Graphic arguments have been put forward regarding the reality of the lives of the people we are discussing. I respectfully suggest that the people who have framed these conditions have not been able to imagine what it is like to be in a house you cannot bear to be in for 12 hours a day for up to a year. Some sort of assessment by the Government in advance of imposing such restrictions on people who are already in trouble might be a good idea. Perhaps some sort of evaluation is in place that could be looked at. I do not know whether that is the case. Of course, it is a good idea to find alternatives to custody and for more serious offending but not, I suggest, if it hastens the route to custody. I cannot imagine how this measure will not lead to more reoffending. If there are more serious offenders around, it will simply result in more serious offending because these sanctions will be almost impossibly difficult to adhere to.
	Once again, I thank everybody who has participated in the debate. I say to my noble friend that I hope that the arguments that have been made this evening will be taken away and considered very carefully become we come back to the matter on Report.
	Clause 67 agreed.
	Clause 68 : Foreign travel prohibition requirement
	Amendment 177ZB
	 Moved by Baroness Northover
	177ZB: Clause 68, page 51, line 3, after "country" insert "or territory"

Baroness Northover: My Lords, the amendments in this group are minor, technical amendments to ensure that the extent of court-imposed foreign travel prohibitions includes territories as well as countries. I beg to move.

Lord Bach: Whenever I was sitting where the noble Baroness is sitting now and I began my speech on government amendments by saying that they were minor and technical, those sitting opposite me used to look doubly hard at those amendments to see whether they really were minor and technical. I am not saying that I have looked doubly hard at these amendments but they are clearly minor and technical and we have no objection to them.
	Amendment 177ZB agreed.
	Amendments 177ZC to 177ZE
	 Moved by Baroness Northover
	177ZC: Clause 68, page 51, line 5, after first "country" insert "or territory"
	177ZD: Clause 68, page 51, line 5, at end insert "or territory"
	177ZE: Clause 68, page 51, line 7, at end insert "or territory"
	Amendments 177ZC to 177ZE agreed.
	Clause 68, as amended, agreed.
	Clauses 69 to 71 agreed.
	Amendment 177A
	 Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
	177A: After Clause 71, insert the following new Clause-
	"Alcohol monitoring requirement
	(1) After section 212 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, insert-
	"212A Alcohol monitoring requirement
	(1) In this Part "alcohol monitoring requirement", in relation to a relevant order, means a requirement that during a period specified in the order, the offender must-
	(a) not consume alcohol,
	(b) for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is alcohol in the offender's body, provide samples of such description as may be determined, at such times or in such circumstances as may (subject to the provisions of the order) be determined by the responsible officer or by the person specified as the person to whom the samples are to be provided, and
	(c) pay such amount of no less than £1 and no more than £5 in respect of the costs of taking and analysing the sample as may be specified in the order.
	(2) A court may not impose an alcohol monitoring requirement unless-
	(a) it is satisfied that-
	(i) the offender has a propensity to misuse alcohol and the offender expresses willingness to comply with the alcohol monitoring requirement, or
	(ii) the misuse by the offender of alcohol caused or contributed to the offence in question, and
	(b) the court has been notified by the Secretary of State that arrangements for implementing the requirement are available in the area proposed to be specified in the order under section 216 (local justice area to be specified in relevant order).
	(3) A relevant order imposing an alcohol monitoring requirement must provide that the results of any tests carried out on any samples provided by the offender to the monitoring officer in pursuance of the requirement are to be communicated to the responsible officer.
	(4) The Secretary of State may from time to time give guidance about the exercise of the function of making determinations as to the provision of samples pursuant to subsection (1)(b).
	(5) The Secretary of State may make rules for all or any of the following purposes-
	(a) regulating the provision of samples pursuant to an alcohol monitoring requirement, including hours of attendance, interval between samples and the keeping of attendance records;
	(b) regulating the provision and carrying on of a facility for the testing of samples;
	(c) determining the maximum and minimum fee that may be specified under subsection (1)(c), and the frequency of such payments;
	(d) regulating the functions of the monitoring officer; and
	(e) making such supplemental, incidental, consequential and transitional provision as the Secretary of State considers necessary or expedient.
	(6) In this section, "monitoring officer" means any person, other than the responsible officer, specified in an alcohol monitoring requirement as the person to whom samples must be provided."."

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, this set of amendments concerns an alcohol monitoring requirement and is modified from those tabled in Committee on the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. The alcohol monitoring requirement requires an offender to abstain from alcohol and be regularly tested to ensure compliance as part of any community or custodial sentence. It would provide an additional option-a new tool-for the courts.
	These amendments would not stop responsible social drinking. They aim to deal with irresponsible, anti-social alcohol abuse and its devastating consequences. When I tabled these amendments previously, the Government's response was that they would pilot the idea in October, using existing legislation for low-level crimes. October has come and gone. Where is the pilot? Anyway, this is needed for middle and high-level crimes, not just low-level crimes.
	I should explain why we need primary legislation to undertake a proper pilot. London wants to do a pilot and will fund that pilot. The proposal has wide support. London Councils, which represents all 32 London boroughs, has written to Ken Clarke supporting the scheme. The chair of London Councils is Mayor Jules Pipe, the Labour elected mayor of Hackney. The scheme's project board has representatives from Her Majesty's Courts Service, London Probation, Public Health and the Crown Prosecution Service involved in developing the pilot. Consultation has involved domestic violence victims, Refuge, Women's Aid, domestic violence offenders, health leads and those with an interest in the night-time economy from transport to addiction support services.
	Today, I spoke to Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who is "fully supportive" of the proposal. He commented that alcohol is a precursor to crime in about 80 per cent of crimes in London and that after six o'clock at night you can smell the problem in the police cells. Violence against the person offences account for 64 per cent of Metropolitan Police alcohol flagged offences and criminal damage accounts for some 11 per cent of alcohol flagged crime. We should remember that only about 10 per cent of offences get flagged as alcohol-related even though, in recent British Crime Surveys, victims believe offenders to be under the influence of alcohol in about half of all violent incidents. The commissioner wants this to be a mandatory scheme. Voluntary schemes do not work because you need to support those who most need it and who are unlikely to recognise that need without compulsion. He wants this measure to act as a driver for better health as youth binge drinking is now a common cause of end-stage alcohol-induced liver failure in those aged under 25. We have a major social and health problem.
	The Metropolitan Police view this measure as an additional tool against drink-driving and domestic violence. The proposed alcohol monitoring requirement has the potential to reduce reoffending for alcohol-related crime, particularly drink-driving and domestic violence, and contribute to long-term behavioural change of offenders.
	Data in the US, where the scheme has been in place for eight years, show that reoffending rates at three years after alcohol monitoring more than halved when compared with traditional sentences of fines or custody. There in the US, 99 per cent of tests are negative, and two-thirds of those on an alcohol monitoring scheme have perfect compliance throughout the whole period of the scheme.
	Courts need a different sentence to tackle alcohol-related crime because what we have is just not working. Custody tears families apart and single large fines damage the children in the home more than the offender. Neither custody nor fines address behavioural change. London wants to pilot this scheme in relation to offences of violence against the person, drink-driving and domestic violence. It is recognised that developing a scheme in relation to domestic violence would require particular care to ensure that the safety of the victim, including any dependants, is an integral part of the scheme.
	These amendments will enable the court to take enforcement action on alcohol-related violence and to monitor compliance, particularly regarding middle-level offences such as common assault, offences against the person, threatening behaviour and domestic violence. How would it work? Pre-court screening aims to identify alcoholics whose needs are so great that the scheme would not be suitable for them. Alcohol monitoring as part of a suspended sentence, a community sentence or post-release licence would be an alternative to custody when the magistrate is satisfied that the offender understands the demands, which are no alcohol and daily testing.
	Evidence suggests that the period needs to be 12 weeks to achieve real behavioural change. The court would order the offender to pay for each test-usually £1, which is less than such offenders are paying for their drinks. Let us get this in proportion: £2 a day is less than the cost of one pint of beer in a pub or two pints from many supermarkets. The cost of the monitoring to the offender is very low compared with the amount that they are normally spending on their huge alcohol intake-even when that is irregular. Testing would be done by either a private company or voluntary third-sector agency using paid staff, not volunteers. It will not tie up police constable time.
	For the pilot, test centres would use existing court and probation premises near transport hubs. The initial alcohol test would be taken with a standard breathalyser. If it is positive, a second test would be taken with evidential standard equipment and mouthpiece. Breaches, which might be through a positive breath test, non-attendance or non-payment, would be dealt with using standard processes, with a swift and modest sanction such as an extension of the monitoring period in the first instance. Non-payment will need a flexible approach, particularly for those on benefits, and will be specified in the protocol. I have gone through the draft protocol but I shall not delay the debate by going through its minutiae.
	The amendments are compatible with our human rights law-in particular, Articles 5 and 8, and habeas corpus. Let me be explicit: there is no compulsion on an officer to arrest a person for non-compliance and no compulsion to detain on arrest. An officer may arrest a person only when it satisfies the test of reasonableness and proportionality in Article 5.1(b).
	In London alone, almost 9,000 cases would be suitable for the scheme. Between half and a quarter of these are people who are employed. The scheme would allow them to present for testing on the way to and from work, without any risk to their job. For offenders with anger and aggression issues, counselling and family support have the greatest chance of success when the participants are sober.
	Existing orders that relate to offences for low-level crimes and have been used in cases of alcohol abuse do not have a success story attached to them. The alcohol-monitoring requirement would be appropriate for medium to high-level offences that require appearance at a court for sentencing. Existing orders were discussed with the Home Office and Ministry of Justice officials, but were considered inappropriate by those who want to pilot this scheme in London because, for example, drink banning orders keep people out of an area but do not halt the abuse, and are non-enforceable. Conditional cautions need to be voluntary, involve an admission of guilt and are managed by the police. The police do not want to use conditional cautions because they do not have the manpower and do not feel that such cautions are appropriate. Anti-social behaviour orders are civil orders to tackle harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons not in the same household, and therefore do nothing to tackle domestic violence. Community sentencing could require attendance but not testing by breathalyser. Penalty notices for disorder do not require an admission of guilt, and do not count as convictions. The current fine of £80 is suitable only for minor offences.
	I am sure that the Minister will say in response that the Government plan a pilot under community sentencing, just as they did previously for low-level offences, by using tagging for secure continuous remote alcohol monitoring-SCRAM devices that detect alcohol in sweat. These devices are not yet type-approved by the Home Office. They are bulky, are fixed around the ankle, and make a buzzing sound every 30 minutes as they sample the sweat. The offender cannot travel without prior permission because they have to be near the base station to download data daily. The wearer has to connect the device to the mains to recharge and cannot bath, use household cleaning or personal hygiene products that contain any alcohol at all, because that would give a false positive reading-and the device is in place for three months. As for the collection of the £1 test cost, the principle of hypothecation locally is already in place for asset seizures. The police can already hypothecate when the money is there.
	We have an epidemic of alcohol abuse in this country. We cannot carry on doing what we are doing. It just is not working. These amendments would allow a full pilot to take place in a small area. London wants to do that to discover how well it works or not, and to iron out any problems. These amendments are essential to allow that pilot to happen. I beg to move.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, anyone who has spent time in an accident and emergency department on a weekend evening will recognise the truth of what the noble Baroness has just said-that we face an epidemic of alcohol-related crime that is clogging up the A&E departments every weekend, with people being brought in with serious injuries sustained as a result of alcohol-related violence. I declare a personal interest, having been taken into St Thomas's after suffering a burst colon as a result of being knocked off my bicycle in Millbank. It was on a Saturday night after a delayed reaction to the accident. I was taken in at 4.30 am and had to wait six hours before I received attention, and the whole of St Thomas's A&E department was filled with people who had suffered alcohol-related injuries on the streets.
	I echo the noble Baroness in saying that we have signally failed in attempting to find an effective way of dealing particularly with persistent offenders who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol. London Councils has drawn our attention, as the noble Baroness said, to the fact that almost half all violent crime is fuelled by alcohol, and that each year more than a million alcohol-related hospital admissions occur-and that figure is increasing by 8 per cent per annum. The Home Office estimates that the cost of alcohol-related crime is somewhere around £10.5 billion a year, which does not even count the costs imposed on other departments such as health or justice.
	These amendments therefore provide a new approach that has been tested and found to be highly effective in reducing serial alcohol-related offences of all kinds, including street violence, driving under the influence, domestic violence, burglary and theft.
	In South Dakota, where the scheme was pioneered, alcohol-related motor vehicle fatalities were reduced by 60 per cent after the scheme had been in operation for five years. The system has now been extended to neighbouring states and will, I believe, be imminently tested in Strathclyde.
	I was very impressed by the presentation given to some of your Lordships in a Committee Room upstairs by Professor Humphreys on the behavioural science associated with the Dakota system and why it works. The statistics certainly show that it is highly effective. The essence of the system is that the offender must sign up to total abstinence from alcohol and undergo regular testing to ensure that he adheres to the undertaking.
	If the test is positive that leads to a further confirmation test, and if that too is positive the breach leads to an immediate court appearance, which could mean a night spent in custody-it mandatorily leads to a night in custody in the case of South Dakota; whereas in the case of the London experiment, which is supported by all the London councils and the GLA, it means an extension of the alcohol monitoring requirement. In the South Dakota pilot, I understand that immediate 24-hour imprisonment was mandatory but, in the review of the proposal, the sentencing power of the courts in the proposed Greater London scheme is far more flexible. The case is overwhelming that we should try this experiment, and I very much hope that the Minister will accept the noble Baroness's amendment.

Baroness Jenkin of Kennington: My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to the amendments and to support the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. To me, the points made by the two previous speakers are unanswerable. We know that we have a very serious problem with alcohol, and the current solutions are not working. Those problems are leading to enormous costs not just for stretched hospital and police services but for the health and well-being of those concerned. We heard about some of the London statistics, but I hope that your Lordships will forgive me for repeating them because they are so shocking.
	In 2010-11, there were more than 1 million alcohol-related hospital admissions, and the figure is rising by about 78,000 each year. Alcohol accounts for an estimated 40 per cent of A&E attendances. London has the highest rate of alcohol-related crime in England. In 2010-11, there were 11.7 alcohol-related crimes recorded per 1,000 population, compared with 7.6 countrywide. Last year, the police alcohol-flagged offences for London showed 18,403 violence against the person offences, 3,612 criminal damage offences, and 2,136 theft and handling offences. London also had the highest rate of alcohol-related violent crimes and sexual offences, which is why the impact on violence against women has been incorporated within the proposal, initially for domestic violence.
	It is not surprising that, as we have already heard, the proposals have the enthusiastic support of the Metropolitan Police and the mayor, who wish to trial the scheme. But what do the general public think about the proposals? ICM research conducted a survey on behalf of the GLA in November last year which showed that 69 per cent support the idea of the courts having the option of banning an offender from consuming alcohol if they have been found guilty of committing an alcohol-related offence. There is also support of nearly two-thirds for the courts having the option of banning someone who has been given bail from consuming alcohol.
	Let us remember that these are not just statistics, they are real people. I wish to make a few further comments as a family member, as a mother, on behalf of hundreds of thousands of anxious parents who spend sleepless nights waiting for a call from A&E or the police station, waiting for the door to slam, for the sound of stumbling up the stairs, for the retching in the bathroom, hoping not to see, the following morning, another black eye or more bruised knuckles.
	The current measures fail. These proposals ensure three months of enforced sobriety and would provide a window of opportunity for reflection, for peace for the whole family unit to work together to help a young person to take responsibility for his or her-and we all know the shocking statistics now of how many "hers" are getting into trouble-own behaviour. These proposals would provide families with a lifeline to cling to at a time of enormous stress and strain in their lives.
	I say to my noble friend that 69 per cent of the public support the proposals. The mayor is prepared to fund a pilot scheme and every London borough wishes to run that pilot. Members of your Lordships' House with tremendous expertise and experience support the proposals. I so hope that the Government are prepared to do so too.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, which was moved so ably by the noble Baroness, who has done a great deal of work in bringing it to the attention of your Lordships. I shall make four points briefly.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said that this is an epidemic affecting the nation. She is of course right, but it is not a new epidemic. It is absolutely shameful that this epidemic has been affecting the nation to a greater and greater extent for, perhaps, the past 150 years. My noble friend Lord McNally got into a little difficulty earlier when he mentioned Dickens to the Committee, and probably rather wished that he had not. I think I will not be controverted if I say that Dickens describes the effect of drink on young and, in many cases, very poor people in London very graphically in a way which has developed over the years. It is absolutely shameful that this epidemic has been allowed to continue for so long and it is about time that we did something about it. This proposal promises a great deal.
	My second point is about the experience of the courts. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Mr Hogan-Howe, who supports the amendment at least in principle, came to London after a gap following a period when he was the chief constable of Merseyside. On every Monday morning-I do not wish to be Liverpoolist about this; I am merely using a city I love as an example-in the magistrates' court in Dale Street, there is a procession of young men and some young women who have been in custody over the weekend because of mostly, but not always, relatively low-level offences committed because of uncontrolled drinking. Bridewells such as the Liverpool Bridewell on a Friday and Saturday night are a sad piece of evidence as to the effects of drink taken to excess by young people.
	I do not want to sound sanctimonious about this. Teaching people responsible drinking is a very good idea. We want families to teach their children responsible drinking, which you will have seen in fairly large measure after Wales's victory over Ireland at the last gasp of the match last weekend-I knew that that would provoke my noble friend Lord Thomas from his slumber in front of me.
	My point is that in every magistrates' court and every Crown Court-this goes to serious levels of offending -although we tend to talk a great deal about the effect of drugs, believe me, the effect of drink is ubiquitous. Any of us who has practised or has sat in those courts knows that it attracts every kind of crime and affects every class in society and every age group, but particularly the young.
	Thirdly, I mention legal aid. We have spent a lot of time in this Committee trying to find ways to save money without removing legal aid. If there is one sure way to save money on legal aid, it is by reducing the incidence of serious crime by the introduction of this kind of measure. I confess my interest as president of the Howard League and feel that I can put my hand on what passes for my heart and say to my noble friends on the Front Bench: if there is one guaranteed way of saving a great deal of money on legal aid in the very serious and middling sectors of crime, it is by adopting this kind of measure.
	My fourth point is about the revolving door of imprisonment. In one connection we heard earlier from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about 3,000 people who found themselves in prison because they were in breach of an order made in respect of a non-imprisonable offence. That is just one example of a huge cohort of people who find themselves in prison for breaking the law, although not terribly badly, relatively speaking. There is no cause of that door revolving at high speed greater than the misuse of alcohol. I believe that it would be completely irresponsible if we were not to seize this opportunity provided by the noble Baroness and have some serious pilot projects of the kind described in the amendment. I respectfully suggest to my noble friend on the Front Bench that in fact Liverpool would be a very good place to have a pilot because it has the community court, which was introduced by the previous Government. It is working extremely well and has won plaudits all around the world. In partnership with the community court, this kind of system could offer something towards reducing crime.
	There is an analogy here. Drug treatment and testing orders-DTTOs-administered by judges, have been extremely effective in reducing drug-taking at a relatively low level. I have spoken to a number of circuit judges who have had to administer these orders and to a man and woman they believe that this kind of measure, which seeks to reduce the level of substance misuse gradually, works really well, mainly because it ceases to be authoritarian and engages the partnership of the person concerned. It works because most people who commit violent offences when they are, for example, under the influence of drink regret it afterwards and do not want to appear before a court in the future.
	On those grounds, I support the amendment as strongly as I can and I hope that we will hear a positive response from the Front Bench.

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, I start by giving the apologies of my noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, whose name appears on the amendment. Unfortunately, he had to leave for another engagement.
	I very strongly support the initiative set out by the noble Baroness. As has been said by others, it is a real recognition of the role that alcohol plays in crime, especially in domestic violence. The link between alcohol and domestic abuse is well known, as is the link between alcohol and cases of child protection. Alcohol Concern has demonstrated how often the criminal behaviour is repeated if the alcohol abuse is not tackled. As more than one of its clients has said, "He only hits me when he's been drinking". But as the alcohol support worker would reply, "If you knew you were going to hit the person you most loved once you were drunk, do you think you'd have that first drink?".
	The fact that so many men continue to take that first drink shows how valuable an intervention aimed at offenders could be. The sobriety scheme could play a role in this. I do not think that it is enough on its own, as I think that there needs to be some alcohol referral work to go alongside it. People who fail to tackle their misuse themselves are likely to need some assistance to work in parallel with breath-testing. That may involve some fairly brief intervention by experienced staff, and I believe that this scheme, working in parallel with the provision of such help, could make a real difference. The running of a pilot scheme, as suggested, is just the way to see whether this would work and whether, together with some brief interventions, it could help to deal with people who have a drink problem but who, by themselves, simply cannot get it under control. It could make a difference to the continued problem drinking of those who have broken the law.
	I am no longer a magistrate, unlike my noble friend, but when I was a magistrate I would have loved the possibility of a rehabilitation order to monitor alcohol consumption. I believe that we should place victims centre-stage when we assess these amendments. Not only is most domestic abuse-that is the phrase used, although we used to call it "wife battering"-alcohol-fuelled but so, as we have already heard, is violence on the streets and against property, and there would be considerably less of that without the addition of drunkenness. When are we going to take action, as this House could do tonight, and do what ordinary, decent people want, which is to reduce the alcohol-related disruption to their lives?
	This is an enabling measure. It does not require courts to impose it. It is an opportunity for someone with a propensity to misuse alcohol in a way that damages others, not themselves, to have a period of sobriety with, it is hoped, help, thus improving their family life as well as the well-being of others. The amendment would allow a magistrate to do this only if alcohol caused or contributed to the offence and the offender had a propensity to misuse alcohol and was willing to comply with the requirement.
	My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe was very anxious to make the point that a sunset clause could be added to a provision for such pilots so that, if they had not taken place after a year, the provision would not be needed on the statute book. Might that help the Government to accept the proposal? I very much hope that they will grasp with both hands this excellent idea of a pilot.

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I must admit that when I started to listen to this short and interesting debate, I was somewhat puzzled by it and I certainly did not think that this proposal had much of a part to play. However, the more I listened, the more interested I became. Having heard the very good speeches of my noble friend Lady Finlay and the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, setting out the support that exists, and indeed the practical support from the mayor, I am now convinced that this is a possible area for action. However, I have a question. When an assessment of alcohol consumption was made, could a test also be carried out to see whether drugs were involved and, if they were, could drugs also come under the treatment required? We all know that, alas, the consumption of drugs, as with alcohol, is rife. Equally, I totally accept that the amount of alcohol consumed by the young today is huge compared with what young people drank in the past. I am talking about quantities, because one sees how much is drunk by the younger generations. Having heard the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I also agree that it might be a good idea to have a sunset clause. Somewhat to my surprise, I am quite attracted to this idea and I shall be very interested to hear what the Government have to say.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: It may be helpful if I respond briefly to the question about drugs. Drugs can be tested using this model, as has happened in Hawaii. However, this is about alcohol monitoring. The drug problem involves a much smaller number of people and there is not the same level of gratuitous violence as one gets with alcohol. Also, drug-testing usually requires a urine sample, whereas here we are talking about a breathalyser which will pick up alcohol levels. This is exactly why a pilot is important. One can find out the problems that can occur and the pilot could be rolled out further if it was successful. This is about alcohol monitoring, and we are dealing with alcohol because it is the biggest problem that we face. In conjunction with that, of course, there is lots of support on offer to people. The problem is that they do not take it up.

Baroness Newlove: My Lords, I had no intention of speaking in this debate but having listened to noble Lords, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I could not sit any longer. I am speaking because I truly support what is being said about sobriety testing and I ask the Government really to look at this. In the area in which I work, alcohol is my passion, because I am the victim of a crime-my husband was kicked to death in an alcohol-fuelled murder, so I am passionate about this subject. I am a practical person and not into statistics. The statistic that I want to look at is, what is the magic number? Are we really going to roll up our sleeves and tackle this? I welcome the amendment and am looking for support around the House. We need to consider the solutions in front of us and not keep waiting for further evidence. Let us do something not just to prevent having more murder victims but to help the young to have a healthy and socially responsible lifestyle ahead of them.

Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I do not want to detain the Committee for long partly because I agree with virtually every word that all noble Lords who have contributed to the short debate have said. The speeches made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Jenkin and Lady Newlove, and the speech of my noble friend Lady Hayter encompass all the arguments.
	I have to disagree, however, with one point made by the noble Baroness Lady Finlay, which was the dismissal of possible technical solutions. Quite fortuitously, after the debate on a similar amendment to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act, I met some manufacturers of equipment who, in passing, referred to equipment they have developed-I gather that three or four other manufacturers have done similar things-that enables remote alcohol monitoring. It would be wrong to dismiss that as an option. The equipment that I saw when I asked further about this-I understand that it has been shown to the Home Office, although I do not know the outcome of those discussions-clearly did not have all the disadvantages that the noble Baroness described.
	I hope that the Government will respond to the views that have been overwhelmingly expressed in the Committee today and recognise that this point should be taken on board. This is a permissive proposal that will allow the pilots to take place. It is not mandatory either on magistrates or the police in terms of the action that they take. About 40 per cent of violent crimes have an alcohol component to them, so if this demonstrates that you can do something useful to reduce the level of alcohol-fuelled crimes, reduce the number of people who have to be admitted for longer periods or reduce the numbers at the revolving door into penal establishments, then it has to be in the interests of society as a whole. I hope that the noble Baroness who will respond to this debate has been briefed to say that the Government will support the scheme, and that they will either accept the amendment or table a suitable one on Report or Third Reading that will put this on to the statute book and enable these pilots to go ahead.

Lord Bach: My Lords, the problems of drugs in this country are always in the news. The arguments about whether they should be legal, illegal or somewhere in between are a constant source of debate among talking heads-quite rightly too, as it is a very serious problem and issue. By comparison, the issues of alcoholism and too much consumption of alcohol have always taken, certainly in recent times, very much a second place in discussion. Of course, if we read our local newspapers, we will see one such case after another-often they are minor, but sometimes they are very serious, which I shall talk about in a moment. We hear of X being found drunk and disorderly at the very bottom end of it, or of criminal damage or damage to a person. Every week countless cases are there to be recorded by any enterprising journalist who goes along to the local magistrates' court. It is a wonder that, over many years, we have allowed this imbalance to grow-as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, emphasised-in our discussion of drugs and alcohol. Alcohol when misused is a drug. There is no question or doubt about that.
	We have heard some extraordinarily impressive speeches in a very impressive debate. From the opposition Front Bench we welcome the amendment and will support it all the way. I can be brief, as I know that people are waiting for other business to begin, but the facts are truly terrifying. There are 1.2 million alcohol-related violent incidents a year, including about half of all violent crimes. There are 360,000 incidents of domestic violence, a third of which are linked to alcohol misuse. There are all those arrests for drunkenness and disorder. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, talked about medium and serious crime. There are 530 drink-driving deaths-what a waste that is. There is also the appalling statistic that 58 per cent of rapists reported drinking, no doubt to excess, beforehand. They are horrifying figures for a civilised society and more needs to be done.
	We are living in a time of austerity-it does not matter whose fault it is for these purposes-when more people are unemployed and people are probably poorer than they were. The figures for relationship breakdown are not exactly encouraging. Those are all factors that have been associated in the past with heavy drinking. We cannot be careless about the issue now. The cost each year is absolutely huge-£8 billion to £13 billion a year, as estimated by the Home Office in 2010. We have heard about the National Health Service and the ridiculous amount of money that it has to spend on people who constantly get drunk and then get hurt.
	Of course I claim that the previous Government did useful and good things in this field, and no doubt the Government before that one did too, but that is no argument in itself. We have to do more and we have to take slight risks. We have to do more than we would otherwise think of doing. It is not a matter for some bureaucracy to decide that we can move forward on this step but not that one. This suggestion has been well discussed by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and her supporters, and I pay special tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, who speaks with such effect on all these matters. The argument has been so one-sided that is very hard to see any argument at all against the Government supporting, at least in principle, what has been suggested. I hope that they will support the amendment. We certainly support it-it would be a crying shame not to. It is, after all, a pilot that is being proposed. It is not a dramatic implementation across the country all in one go. A pilot has been proposed and I cannot think of one argument against adopting it.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, in responding to these amendments I am aware that these proposals were discussed previously in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act last year. I am very glad to say that we very much support the principle of the intention of the noble Baroness and other noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. It is very clear that alcohol-related offending causes a great deal of harm and there is an undeniable logic in tackling alcohol-related offending by preventing an offender from participating in the activity that has given rise to or exacerbated their criminal conduct.
	The noble Baroness makes a very cogent case, and we all know how very damaging the abuse of alcohol can be. I can therefore confirm to the Committee that the Government will shortly be establishing two pilot schemes to test the principles and effect of enforced sobriety schemes as part of our effort to tackle and reduce alcohol-related crime, drawing on the success of similar schemes that have been trialled in the United States.
	At the time of the policing Bill, the Government committed to testing sobriety schemes as part of conditional cautions within existing legislation. Since then, the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office have developed further proposals to pilot sobriety as part of community orders within the existing law. There will be two pilots using tags and breathalysers because it is extremely important to assess the practical advantages and disadvantages of schemes such as this. The conditional caution pilot will focus upon offenders who commit high-volume alcohol-related offences, such as drunk and disorderly, common assault and criminal damage. Offenders will face the tough choice of accepting sobriety conditions or facing prosecution and the prospect of receiving a drinking banning order on conviction. Anyone failing to comply with these conditions would be prosecuted for the original offence.
	The second pilot will test sobriety as part of community orders, which will target a range of more serious offences where alcohol is a contributing factor. We will be looking at making use of the latest technology through which to monitor an offender's compliance with the terms of the sobriety requirements. Breach procedures will exist as they currently do. We will set out further details of these pilots in the Government's forthcoming alcohol strategy.
	We want to hear the views of the judiciary, professionals within the criminal justice system and the public on the proposals. We will therefore be consulting in parallel with the pilot schemes to ensure that we give full consideration to the purpose, effect and benefit of sobriety schemes as we develop work further. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, as a medical scientist, knows how important it is to evaluate evidence. In her introductory remarks, she flagged up some of the complexities in this area. It is extremely important that we learn from these pilots in order that we can take forward what works best.
	Alongside this we are taking a range of other measures to tackle alcohol-related offending. Pricing is one crucial lever for tackling alcohol misuse and its associated crime and health harms. I have just mentioned that the Government's alcohol strategy will be set out shortly. We are also rebalancing the Licensing Act in favour of communities by giving greater powers to police and licensing officers to tackle irresponsible businesses. We are also strengthening violence reduction programmes to incorporate a greater emphasis on tackling the impact of alcohol and drugs and gathering evidence from drinking banning orders that are being piloted in 50 areas across England and Wales.
	The noble Baroness has done a great deal to bring this issue to the Government's attention, and I congratulate her for it, but as I have said, it is extremely important that we are certain of the effectiveness of this policy before it is put in statute, which is why I am very glad that we can take forward the pilots under current legislation so that the practical aspects can be properly assessed. There are some concerns not about the principles of the amendment but about the design of some of the elements. We feel that some safeguards are not quite as they should be.
	The noble Baroness mentioned questions over the tagging equipment. It will be assessed, but I flag up that in 45 states in the United States it has been used for more than 5,000 offenders and has the confidence of the US judiciary and so on. There are a number of things that I can write to the noble Baroness about in regard to that, but as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, there are different views on some of the equipment which are slightly at variance with what the noble Baroness said. That shows how important it is to pilot and to see how these various approaches work.
	On the issue of compelling an offender to pay for the test, while there are mechanisms for courts to administer and collect financial penalties, no mechanism exists for a criminal court to require an offender to pay the costs of delivering a non-financial penalty in this way. Furthermore, since the fine would be a punishment in its own right, this would add considerable punitive weight to the nature of the sentence and the court would factor that in. Therefore, we feel that the offender-pay element in the noble Baroness's pilot proposals should not be taken forward. It is not an essential part of them, and we feel it is very important to see how other aspects of the proposals work.
	There are a number of other concerns about the proposed amendments-for example, the proposal to give a constable a power of arrest without warrant, without warning and, more importantly, without appropriate consultation with the responsible officer, either a probation officer or a youth offending team worker. If the intention is to bring an offender immediately back to court, it would achieve little because there is no power to detain the offender, who would have to be released pending any breach hearing. There are some complexities in that.
	Various noble Lords mentioned domestic violence. In piloting this, we do not feel that it is the first area in which we want to use this. We have reservations about sobriety schemes being applied to domestic violence offenders because, if you like, alcohol does not cause domestic violence although, of course, it may very well increase its severity and/or frequency. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to that and to the need to make sure that there are other programmes in place to ensure that the reasons for that domestic violence are being tackled properly. Therefore, for those reasons, it is clear that we need to address the underlying reasons why domestic violence is taking place. It is probably not the best area in which to see whether this is working well. If in future, in conjunction with other supportive measures in the way that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, indicated, it is seen as having potential, that will be a different matter.
	I am not at all surprised that there has been huge public interest in this. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, I am a mother, and I know the impact on my children of alcohol-their own consumption, that of their friends and that of their adversaries. I have been in A&E with broken bones and in hospital with one of my children who chose to swim the Thames when drunk at midnight and ended up with something like typhus. Thus far, my children have survived, and I have not faced the awfulness of what the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, had to face.
	These are very important proposals and we have given very serious thought to them. We are very grateful to the noble Baroness. She is very persistent in arguing her case, and she is right to be so. That is why I am very pleased that we are taking forward the principles of the amendments in the pilots that I have laid out. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, should be reassured that we can take this forward under current legislation, so we do not need to think about sunset clauses and whether we are putting something flawed into the Bill.
	Although we are very pleased to welcome the principle of these amendments, we ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment and hope to work with her in future to take this forward.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I will be grateful if the Minister will tell the Committee under exactly which parts of current legislation these pilots can be conducted. The legal advice that I have had is that it is only low-level offences. I have also been advised that breathalysers cannot be used under current legislation, so it would be helpful if she could specify which legislation they would be used under. Will she tell the Committee whether devices that detect alcohol in sweat are Home Office-approved and, if they are not, when she anticipates that approval will come through so that the pilots can start? Where will these pilots be conducted? When will they start? For how long will they be conducted? Who is funding them? Without that information, it is very difficult to accept at face value what sounds like a great idea, but we have heard it before, last summer, and I am afraid that no action has been seen since then.
	I agree that alcohol does not cause domestic violence but I would be grateful if the Minister could tell us why alcohol-fuelled domestic violence is fundamentally different from other forms of domestic violence. Perhaps it is because it is witnessed by children in the family, who will bear those scars for their whole lives; at least if there is a drunken brawl out in the streets at midnight, it is not witnessed by children where their parent is being seriously injured. Therefore, I also ask for an explanation of why the Government have decided to downgrade the importance of domestic violence, which has extremely long-term effects.

Baroness Northover: I have to dispute what the noble Baroness says about downgrading the importance of domestic violence-we have not. It is because we recognise that it is a very complex and dangerous form of violence that we are separating it out from the assessment of the practicalities of this scheme in these pilots. It is something that has to be addressed across the board and in a much more complex way than whether or not you breathalyse or tag somebody and decide whether or not they have breached various conditions.
	The noble Baroness has made her case extremely clear. We absolutely accept the principles. We are taking this forward in the pilots that I have mentioned. I realise there is another debate coming on. I am very happy to engage with her, as is my noble friend Lord McNally, and give her the answers to all the questions she has raised. I will not detain everybody at this point, and I hope that she will be prepared to work with us to take this further forward. As my noble friend Lord Carlile said, this is a very intractable, long-standing problem, but anything we can do to try to resolve the elements that we can, we should do; that comes overwhelmingly from people in this debate. We are taking forward these pilots-I give her that commitment-and let us discuss the details after the sitting.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am grateful to the Minister for having responded in that way, for offering to meet me and work through all the details. I am also extremely grateful for the support that I have had from all sides of the House, unequivocally. I make it clear that I am not against the tagging process; I am not against anything that deals with this problem effectively. What I am worried about is that if these schemes are not approved this problem will be kicked into touch for yet longer, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, and we just cannot do that. Like others, I also pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, who has spoken movingly and has committed her life to trying to bring some good out of the tragedy that she personally suffered.
	With that, I will not press my amendment tonight, but I look forward to further discussions, and I must warn the Government that if I do not get satisfactory answers I intend to bring this back on Report.
	Amendment 177A withdrawn.
	House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8.54 pm.

EU: Trade Agreement on Banana Imports
	 — 
	Question for Short Debate

Baroness Hooper: To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their assessment of the effects of the European Union trade agreement on banana imports and its impact on African, Caribbean and Pacific banana producers.

Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, before the debate commences, I have two things to say. First, in order to accommodate your Lordships, particularly those who are taking part in this debate, arrangements have been made for the splendid services of the Long Table to be available until 9.05 pm. Secondly, I remind noble Lords that this is a timed debate and that apart from the noble Baronesses, Lady Hooper and Lady Stowell, participants are limited to five minutes, and that when you see the number five it is the time to sit down.

Baroness Hooper: My Lords, when this Question was tabled, it was very topical. Now, almost two years later, having been retabled and having awaited a suitable time slot, I think it is still topical. The point is that bananas are very important to all of us. I am told, and I am quite prepared to accept without further research, that bananas are the most eaten fruit in the world and that the European Union market is the world's largest consumer of the fruit. It is also well known that bananas provide a very healthy component of our diet, being rich in potassium.
	On a personal note, I can well remember as a small child in post-war Britain eating my first banana. They were a rarity then, which seems incredible now, but I have always loved bananas since then and taken an interest in policies affecting them. Imagine my good fortune when the time came for me to take up a postgraduate fellowship in international law and economics at the Universidad Central del Ecuador in Quito, only to discover that Ecuador was a major producer of bananas. To this day, I find Ecuadorian bananas have a special taste, and it is one that I enjoy-with no disrespect, of course, to other producer countries.
	As I said at the outset, this Question was tabled in 2010, following the historic Geneva Agreement on Trade in Bananas. The agreement came to be known as "the end of the banana saga". The long-running trade conflict that preceded it has been described as,
	"one of the most technically complex, politically sensitive and commercially meaningful legal disputes ever brought to the WTO"-
	the World Trade Organisation. The bone of contention lay in the fact that the big American companies like Chiquita and Dole, the "dollar banana" producers, which farmed large plantations in Ecuador, Venezuela, Colombia and elsewhere in Latin America, were able to undercut the prices of the smaller banana producers, which were covered by the ACP-African, Caribbean and Pacific-policies of the European Union, which gave preferential trade terms to these small countries and imposed high tariffs on the Latin American exporters.
	In talking of the ACP countries, I am referring to the 10 main banana-exporting countries: Belize, Cameroon, Côte d'Ivoire, Dominica, the Dominican Republic, Ghana, Jamaica, St Lucia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, and Suriname. It is an exotic roll call, and I know that in this short debate we shall hear in more detail about specific countries.
	The deal between the European Union, Latin American banana producers and the United States aimed to comply with WTO policies and settled the 15 years of banana disputes. It cut the tariff that applied to Latin American banana imports to the EU countries and led to measures to help ACP countries to adjust to this new trading environment by providing financial support for investments in the improvement of competitiveness, economic diversification policies and broader social, economic and environmental impacts. In addition, it has to be said, ACP banana countries continued to enjoy duty- and quota-free access to the European Union under economic partnership agreements, which are separate trade and development agreements.
	I believe that it is fairer to have a policy of social support for poor producing countries than to introduce a system of quotas, which encourages everyone to have a go. I am in favour of that policy. My main question to the Government and the Minister is on whether these arrangements are working. Is there fair and free access to European Union markets for Latin American bananas and the ACP product? Have the ACP countries been able to keep up the viability of their small-scale production without the preferences that they previously enjoyed? Have the special measures intended to help the ACP countries adapt to the effects of changes in the EU import regime really worked?
	Given that the integration of all developing countries into the multilateral trading system and the global economy is a key European Union development objective, have the banana accompanying measures, which are known as BAM, been adequate? Has the €190 million budget been enough to meet the needs? These measures were due to last for four years from 2010 to 2013. Perhaps this is a good moment to ask whether there is an intention to review and renew these measures.
	In considering these issues, it must always be remembered that bananas are crucial to the livelihoods of millions of people and a major source of export revenue for many developing countries-not only for the small countries, but also for the people working in the large plantations who are equally dependent on bananas as a source of livelihood. However, I recognise that the Caribbean countries have a special case. In particular, many of these small island nations previously produced sugar cane but, as a result of European Economic Community-as it was then known-policies which supported the production of sugar beet, they had to diversify. Because of climate and other weather conditions, bananas took over as the only suitable alternative crop.
	As I have a few moments left, perhaps I may mention a couple of somewhat unrelated points. There may be other ways to use bananas in order to increase the size of the market-for example, as an alternative energy source. The foliage and fibre, which comes at the end of the production of the fruit, could be used to create biomass energy rather than simply being burnt off as it is currently. Research would have to be initiated to analyse its viability. Perhaps the University of the West Indies could consider doing something on those lines.
	Most bananas carry a country-of-origin label and you know whether you are buying Colombian, Costa Rican or Ecuadorian bananas. But fair trade bananas carry only a fair trade label. Is there an explanation for that? It is possible that some other speakers may have the answer, as well as my noble friend.
	As a postscript, I say that over the years your Lordships' House has had many opportunities to debate the subject of bananas, largely because of the long-running trade dispute. That situation may happily have changed and the future may not hold so many banana debates. I cannot resist mentioning the last occasion on which we had such a debate-I think it was in 2006-which the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, introduced. It is good that he is here today to give continuity.
	I also remember a much earlier debate when the late Lord Pitt of Hampstead participated. He spoke on behalf of the producers in Grenada. Therefore, I am very happy to see his noble kinswoman, the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, will be lending her voice to today's proceedings. I thank all of your Lordships who are joining in the debate and I look forward to listening and learning from all the contributions, and from the Minister's reply.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on obtaining this debate at last and on her eloquent introduction. I declare a non-pecuniary interest as president of the Caribbean Council. Bananas are still a very important source of income and employment in many parts of the Caribbean, particularly the eastern Caribbean. St Lucia, for example, has 1,500 farmers in the banana sector but it has seen a huge decline. In its heyday, 30,000 people worked in the banana sector.
	We have seen rapid liberalisation of long-standing preferential trade agreements taking place. When that happens, they need to be replaced by financial support and capacity-building measures to make sure that people whose livelihoods are being swept away are able to become more competitive or to find employment in other sectors. The banana accompanying measures, which were agreed by the European Commission, will go some way to achieving that by extending the earlier banana support programme with an additional €190 million. While that money is of assistance it covers support only until 2013 whereas, depending on the progress with the Doha round, we expect tariff reductions to continue until 2020. Therefore, there is a gap.
	It is particularly scandalous that, due to a stand-off between the EU institutions, there has been a delay between the agreement to dramatically lower the preferential tariffs and agreeing the funding mechanism. In fact, the Geneva agreement on bananas, to which the noble Baroness referred, was signed in December 2009. Now, more than two years later, the European Parliament has only just passed a resolution allowing the banana accompanying measures to proceed and the funding has not even started to flow yet. In her reply, will the Minister give us an assurance that our Government will do everything in their power to ensure that the European Commission gets this money flowing as quickly as possible?
	Turning to other sectors, although there has been a lot of discussion on bananas because of the dispute, which remains an important element, we need in the Caribbean to see a movement away from sugar and bananas into higher value-added goods and services where it has a unique advantage. That has already been demonstrated, for example, in developing a massively successful, globally competitive tourist industry, which is based on those beautiful white sandy beaches and the turquoise seas that we all dream about, particularly in the middle of this London winter. Incidentally, the decision by the Government on air passenger duty was particularly unhelpful to the Caribbean in developing the tourist market.
	It is vital that everything possible is done to help to protect these success stories. Industries such as Caribbean rum are already heading in this direction. It is of the highest quality and now is entering a wide range of markets around the world through improved branding and the use of a quality market. Other industries, such as creative and cultural industries, financial services and high-quality cocoa and coffee, all have the potential with the right support to be globally competitive and successful contributors to the economies and employment across the Caribbean region.
	I urge the Minister to ensure that her Government and the European Commission continue to promote the ongoing diversification of the Caribbean economy, and to support this very encouraging trend of developing and growing new and existing industries where the value-added element stays in the Caribbean rather than elsewhere.
	Finally, the economic partnership agreement was signed in October 2008 in good faith by the Caribbean Governments, who understood that they would be locked in for the long term. Many of the preferential benefits in terms of market access and development support were going. Those previous certainties now seem to be disappearing before their eyes. The EU has opened negotiations in quick succession, making bilateral agreements with countries in Central America, South America and now with India in products that are of key importance to the Caribbean. In these negotiations, many of the special concessions that were granted to the Caribbean in the EPA are being watered down or nullified as greater market access is granted to producers in other parts of the world. Some assistance is being provided, but much of it still exists only in theory. Several years down the line, Caribbean Governments are now beginning to have to reduce their duties against European products without the benefit of the aid-for-trade assistance which was promised.
	I conclude by asking the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland, to tell us the extent of the aid-for-trade support that has been provided by the United Kingdom and the European Commission to the Caribbean since the EPA was signed; and whether she agrees that more needs to be done to help the Caribbean, and that it needs to be done quickly.

Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for securing this debate. We must never forget the vast wealth that the Caribbean provided for Europe, yet EU agreements and those that will be negotiated in years to come will further erode the benefits that the Caribbean has enjoyed as a preferential trading partner of the UK and Europe because of these historic and cultural ties.
	This leaves one wondering whether the UK and Europe actually care about the Caribbean any more. Policy decisions taken in recent times on sugar, bananas and more recently on tourism in the form of the unfair UK air passenger duty, seem to reflect a lack of understanding or perhaps interest in the impact of UK and European policies on Caribbean economies and Caribbean people. That is what seems to be happening once again with the new EU trade deals involving bananas. There is a real threat facing the banana growers of the Caribbean who are desperately trying to make an honest living for themselves and their families. The agreements already in place are harming small island states in the Caribbean, especially the Windward Islands, which in the 1990s provided around 40 per cent of the UK's bananas, but now only 8 per cent. The figure has gradually been whittled away by the import of lower-cost bananas from Latin America, picked by low-paid workers. This will only be made worse with the new EU trade deals with Columbia and Peru.
	While the EU has not stood by its commitment to protect the region's banana growers, the organisation Fairtrade has helped thousands of farmers to protect their livelihoods by securing a market for their bananas. This market has grown from 30 per cent in 2004 to over 90 per cent in 2009. The challenge now is to maintain sales to the UK's Fairtrade banana market as well as developing additional markets for other fruit products from the islands. But there are now only around 3,500 farmers compared with 27,000 in 1992. High unemployment, youth unrest and poverty are real threats now facing the island communities. The islands have also been hit by a series of natural disasters, but the resilience of the farmers has meant that banana production could continue because they were able to turn to the Windward Islands Farmers' Association and use the disaster fund they had put aside as a result of Fairtrade premiums. Thanks to Fairtrade, farmers have been given a lifeline and are now empowered. They also receive more money for their bananas, helping them to diversify and develop sustainable livelihoods for themselves and their children in the future. It is morally wrong for us to be part of a regime that takes all this away from them. It has been a struggle for survival. Income has declined from just over £1.5 million in 2009 to £150,000 in 2011. So the key to helping their survival is for companies, retailers and the public to buy Fairtrade Windward Island bananas. We can all make a difference in our own way.
	What can the UK Government do to help? It was good to hear Foreign Secretary William Hague hint at the 2012 UK Caribbean Forum that he wants a new era promoting prosperity, growth and development between the UK and the Caribbean, but this will be difficult for Caribbean banana farmers as the EU has offered just €190 million to all banana farmers across three continents to be shared between nine countries as compensation for going back on commitments. This is clearly insufficient to cover the costs of adjustment. And astonishingly, almost two years after the money was promised, there is still no sign of it. Also, the banana accompanying measures resources are now being given directly to Caribbean Governments, which means that small farmers in the Windward Islands who are in desperate need are not able to access the BAM directly. This is another blow to Caribbean banana growers.
	The Caribbean needs sustainable economic development to create the jobs and growth that will assist the transition from developing to developed countries. They want a hand up and not a hand out. Let us not take away with one hand and give aid funding with the other. People need to retain their dignity, pride and self-worth. Therefore we need to consider what can be done to support the Caribbean in adapting to new trade regimes. I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister what action the Government have taken, first, to ensure rapid payment of the elusive banana accompanying measures. Secondly, they should support the transfer of BAM funds directly to producers in the Windward Islands. Finally, they should top up the outstanding amounts from unallocated money from other EU funding programmes.
	Bananas were first brought to the Caribbean by the Europeans to feed the enslaved workers-my ancestors-500 years ago. Today they are a source of income for the Caribbean people, so let us show some compassion and consideration for our long-term loyal Caribbean friends and supporters by continuing to buy their bananas.

Lord Palmer: My Lords, gosh, what an act to follow. We have heard a very emotional speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for introducing so succinctly this incredibly important subject. She has asked several very important questions, and I was most interested in her ideas for biomass in terms of renewable energy, something that is close to my heart. As usual I have to declare an interest as a residual beneficiary of a banana plantation on the Caribbean island of St Lucia, and my comments are going to be strongly related to that island. I am very grateful indeed for the help I have had from the St Lucian High Commissioner.
	All noble Lords taking part in the debate are by and large singing from exactly the same hymn sheet. Some 100 years ago, there were over 6,000 banana plantations on St Lucia, while today there are fewer than 2,000, which is a dramatic drop. Twenty years ago, the island produced a massive 135,000 tonnes of bananas, which has dwindled to a mere 6,000 tonnes today. This has been caused mainly by the new European Union trade regimes coupled with the huge increase from Latin American producers who, with their geographical terrains, can harvest their crops at a fraction of the cost of the ACP countries, and this is due especially to the much cheaper labour and the size of their farms/plantations. As such, the lovely island of Grenada, which I have been lucky enough to visit, has ceased exporting altogether. This has caused great hardship to those who live in the countryside and who are not involved in the slowly developing tourism industry, which, of course, is being hampered by the grossly unfair APD-the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, made this point particularly forcefully. It really is madness that to fly to Hawaii is cheaper in APD than to fly to the Caribbean, particularly given that Hawaii is slightly more than double the distance of the Caribbean from London.
	I have one very serious point to make on diversification for the small producers, many of whom live on our property in St Lucia. They need to earn a living. Their easiest option is to turn to growing the likes of cannabis, which is dead easy to grow in such a lovely climate and all of which will make its way to the nearest port in the United States of America. This surely cannot be a sensible state of affairs. It would encourage an increase in drug trafficking, which in turn would lead to a huge increase in organised crime. I urge Her Majesty's Government to do all they can to avoid this ghastly scenario.

Baroness Howells of St Davids: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for raising this debate. I feel sure that Lord Pitt, wherever he is, will be pleased to know that the noble Baroness remembered his contribution on this topic some years ago. I know that his wife and family will be very pleased, too. I am unclear as to whether I should declare an interest. My grandfather was fortunate enough to purchase the estate on which his great-great grandfather was enslaved. Our family became growers and exporters of bananas.
	Despite the lack of landmass and the loss of markets in spices and sugar cane, with its by-products of rum, sugar and molasses which had brought wealth to the islands, bananas remained the only real export after the islands became independent nation states. It is our belief that Caribbean bananas are the best in the world, but their history has been well told this evening.
	Since the formation of the common market, meeting upon meeting has been held to decide what is to happen to the banana. Most of those meetings have done one important thing-not so important to us, but important to Europe: weakening the sale of bananas and, in some cases, the obliteration of their position in the Caribbean as a wealth-producing entity.
	For well over five decades, bananas became the main source of revenue in the Caribbean. They kept the islanders in employment and were to some extent the mainstay of political stability. The growing of cannabis in the islands has already been referred to. What else can they do? Illegal it may be, but everything else has been taken away. I urge the British Government, in their meetings with the EU, to look one more time at this issue.
	Small farmers could depend on the Geest boats coming in to collect bananas, which not only maintained their living standards but kept whole villages in employment. Wholesale love and care was lavished on bananas to get them ready for export, so that Britain would get the best quality.
	At that time, preferential treatment was given to all the ACP countries. That treatment was in recognition of the relationship which the United Kingdom had with those small island states when they were colonies. During the past 20 years, the Latin-American countries, spurred on by their US-based companies, have made complaints to the World Trade Organisation about what they describe as preferential treatment for ACP countries. In 1996, Guatemala, Honduras, the USA and Ecuador issued a legal complaint citing three areas of dispute. They talked about the discriminatory tariff allocation and unfair licensing procedures-countries were expected at that time to import ACP/EU bananas in order to export bananas from Latin America into Europe. The procedures were said to contravene the most-favoured nation rule.
	There began a series of meetings, got together to discuss bananas. Most of this was done without the input of the Caribbean or even the African countries. We heard of the imposed deadlines for exploration of preferences, ending with the EU adopting a two-stage approach to what they saw as a problem. At the end of those lengthy discussions, the Caribbean was forced to agree to an economic partnership.
	Other Members have mentioned the various conventions that we have. Then came the Doha ministerial meetings and the creation of the ACP group, which signed up to a comprehensive EPA covering goods, services, trade-related rules and development co-operation. Throughout those years of negotiations, ACP Governments and campaigners expressed serious concerns about the feasibility of free trade between an established, wealthy trading block like the EU and the poor economies of the smaller nations. They were right to point that out.
	I know I am running short of time. Although the homelands have made lots of strides, one thing that has happened is the new tax on air travel. That has brought the countries down.

Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, I join others in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, on introducing the debate. I opened the previous one in 2006 and it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness in this great saga of the banana. I seem to have been in the banana debate for many years. In fact, the noble Baroness, Lady Howells, who I follow, mentioned Lord Pitt. He was a great friend of mine. We had many discussions about bananas together in the bar from time to time. I am glad that she mentioned him. We certainly owe him a great debt. He and I were together in that activity.
	The problem is that I am once again a lone voice in speaking about Latin American bananas as opposed to ACP bananas. Latin American bananas are unsubsidised and are grown on a much bigger scale. They are of just as good quality as any other bananas, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, pointed out from her experience in Ecuador. I, too, have lived in certain banana-producing countries. I was a resident of El Salvador for some years. Central American republics produce bananas on a very big scale and enjoy a tariff system that is reducing all the time. It will eventually be reduced by 2020 to 75 euros a tonne.
	It is understandable that Latin American bananas are voluminous because they are grown on a plantation scale. It is not correct, as has been alleged, that the workers are persecuted and hard done by. For instance, in Colombia the banana plantation workers average 75 per cent above the minimum wage. They are well paid and not a persecuted minority. It is important that we realise that Latin American bananas, which are very good quality, should be allowed to arrive here in reasonable quantities. The central American republics have agreed to a system of tariff reductions over a scale approved by the World Trade Organisation. The World Trade Organisation was set up to encourage a proper system of free trade wherever possible. I like to think that we will be able to get this problem solved. I doubt whether that will happen in the short term because these problems are considered intractable.
	I appreciate that the Caribbean countries have special problems. As has been pointed out, they need to diversify their economies and exploit their rights in tourism. As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, pointed out, the Caribbean beaches are of fantastic quality. Tourism is surely a method of improving their quality of life and providing equal numbers in employment. Hotels are built continuously and require large labour forces to service them. I think the future of the Caribbean lies more in tourism than in producing bananas on small-scale, family-owned smallholdings which inevitably cannot be of the same quality as those produced on a large scale in Latin America.
	I welcome a newcomer to this debate, in the shape of the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. I wish her well in her endeavours to take up the banana cause. I have no doubt that it will not be the last time that we hear about it.

The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, once upon a time, only 12 years ago, the UK among 15 European Union states signed the Cotonou agreement with the 78 ACP countries, which was designed to guarantee former colonies access to EU markets for their primary products. I well remember the preamble-I expect that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, will remember it from his time-solemnly committing Europe not only to meet its trade obligations but to eradicate poverty and to ensure continued development, including alternative forms of livelihood. Then came globalisation and liberalisation, the free trade winds blew through the WTO, and a series of interim economic partnership agreements were signed with a number of countries towards the end of 2007. A more comprehensive EPA with the Caribbean countries was signed in October 2008 but, as we have heard, it has been watered down since.
	Meanwhile, the WTO, led by the US-let us not forget-on behalf of Latin American banana exporters such as Ecuador, has long complained to the EU that the old preferences were still there and discriminating against them. So two years ago, Europe caved in and let them in. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and others have asked, what has happened to the protection for growers in the smaller, vulnerable states in the Windward Islands, so carefully established for them in the Cotonou treaty? The answer is that the UK, the EU and the whole world have let them down.
	While UK sales of bananas have risen dramatically, the increased volume entering from other sources last year has driven down prices in the supermarkets, with a devastating effect on growers. As the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, said, the only bright future lies with the producers linked with the Fairtrade movement. I was pleased to see the familiar blue and yellow logo on the bananas in the Bishops' Bar today. Fairtrade accounts for at least a quarter of UK banana sales. Through the Fairtrade Foundation, which I remember began with the backing of several leading aid agencies a generation ago, and the support of Waitrose and Sainsbury's, thousands of producers and banana workers in the Caribbean are now getting a living wage. But it is not enough.
	Certifying bananas as Fairtrade ensures that banana farmers in Africa and the Caribbean receive a decent price, but this is undermined by supermarkets engaging in banana price wars. A few years ago the price of loose bananas fell below 84 pence a kilo, down to as low as 67 pence a kilo. That was low enough. Last year, Asda cut the price of its loose bananas to 38 pence a kilo, its sixth cut in six weeks and a move that placed acute pressure on rivals to follow suit.
	Since 1992, some 20,000 of the 24,000 farmers in Dominica, St Vincent, St Lucia and Grenada have gone out of business altogether, and the future for its remaining farmers looks bleak. I am not sure that the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Montgomery will be enough for those growers.
	So what are our Government doing at this end to stop the banana price wars that are so harmful, especially to growers least able to cope with squeezed margins in the supply chain? What happened to the decision to appoint a groceries code adjudicator, which they were once so keen about, but which seems to have got stuck in the system? Finally, what happened to the development objectives in the Cotonou agreement? Have they been jettisoned in the name of the WTO and free trade? The agreement states:
	"The partnership shall be centred on the objective of reducing and eventually eradicating poverty consistent with the objectives of sustainable development".
	As a consolation prize, I am hoping that the noble Baroness will tell us how many banana-producing ACP countries who are not LDCs benefit from other arrangements, such as the "Everything But Arms" agreement and any titbits left over from the generalised system of preferences and other forms of concessional trade.
	I conclude by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for introducing the debate and I dedicate these last few words to the late Lord Walston, a Labour Peer and personal friend who was a farmer in Cambridgeshire and St Lucia and who would most certainly have joined in this debate.

Lord Liddle: My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, for bringing forward this debate and for the charm and conviction with which she introduced it. In the debate, we have had many notable contributions. My noble friend Lord Foulkes made me dream of the white beaches and turquoise oceans, but he also spoke with great knowledge and experience from his time as a Minister at international development. We had the passion of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, while other noble Lords, including the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and my noble friend Lady Howells were speaking from personal knowledge.
	Regarding my own knowledge of this issue, I suppose I should declare an interest. The part of my life in which I came across this was while I was in my noble friend Lord Mandelson's cabinet when, as Peter Mandelson, he was Commissioner for trade. This was one of the issues that came across one's desk then, and it is one of the longest running trade sagas in the history of the European Union. Its origins go right back to the start, when the French won preferences for their colonies against the resistance of Germany. When we joined the Common Market, we were able to get preferences for our colonies, which led to the formation of the ACP group. Since then, however, the brutal facts and realities of free trade have caused great difficulty for the vulnerable communities that have depended on these preferences.
	There is an irony here. It is a tragedy that some of the general policies for which we, as a country and as the Labour Party, have fought-for instance, the idea that there be multilateral, supranational jurisdiction on trade issues-are good things but that is what, since 1993, has led to the EU having to abandon its preferences. Similarly, we want a general liberalisation of agriculture. We want to break down the protectionism of the common agricultural policy. So while we want liberalisation of agricultural trade, again, the harsh facts in this case mean very great difficulties for people to whom we owe a moral obligation.
	This has been going on a long time. The EU fought a valiant battle to prevent this happening. The first case by the United States was brought in 1993 and the Geneva agreement was reached only in 2010. We stalled for years, first by fighting the idea that we had to give up on the preferences in Europe and then by saying that we proposed a tariff that was quite high in terms of protecting the Caribbean and other producers. Ultimately, because of the pressure from the WTO jurisdiction system, we have had to give way.
	I turn to my questions for the Minister. First, what is her assessment of the banana market? What has the impact been? How serious is it in the countries that are affected? What is the Government's view of what can be done to help? Secondly, the papers refer to the safeguard clauses that are allowed into the EU/Andean association agreement. How have they been implemented? Have they helped to protect the vulnerable producers? Thirdly, as many noble Lords have mentioned, what are we doing to ensure that the €190 million of special support is being wisely and properly spent? How can we ensure that that help is speeded up? What additional help will we be fighting for beyond 2013? I hope that we will regard this as a priority for the EU budget. Lastly, on a point that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, made, what pressures are we putting on our supermarkets to try to support fair trade standards in the retailing of bananas, which would help the most vulnerable producers?
	These are important questions and this is an important clause. We thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, very much for tabling this debate.

Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I have found this debate fascinating, and I congratulate my noble friend Lady Hooper on her patience, as I know she has waited a long time to secure it. Her thoughtful and expert contribution-and indeed those from all noble Lords-clearly demonstrates why, as she says, this topic is still relevant today.
	It was clear from the contributions by the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin that this topic arouses a lot of passion and emotion because of our ties with the part of the world that we are discussing. In my response I will try to do justice to the points that have been raised. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, for his welcome to me on this topic, which is one that I know noble Lords in the Chamber today have debated on previous occasions.
	As set out in our White Paper, Trade and Investment for Growth, published last year, this Government uphold fully the principles of free and open markets. Free trade reduces the cost of goods and inputs to consumers and manufacturers. It stimulates competitiveness and spurs innovation. Most importantly, free trade, especially at this time, supports sustainable and balanced growth which is, to state the obvious, essential to the global economy. As well as free trade, we believe in non-discrimination between countries at a similar level of development. The European Union's Geneva Agreement on Trade in Bananas, introduced in 2009, supports both these principles.
	Prior to that agreement, the high tariffs placed on bananas imported into the European Union from countries other than the so-called ACP group-Africa, Caribbean and the Pacific-were plainly discriminatory. Not only did that restrict market access and opportunities to banana producers in Latin America and elsewhere, it also raised the price of bananas for consumers in Europe. As I think most noble Lords would agree, those outcomes were not fair, reasonable or economically sensible. By contrast, the Geneva agreement will reduce discriminatory tariffs by 2018, and that reduction will bring considerable benefits.
	I shall start with the benefits for the consumer. As my noble friend Lady Hooper has summarised in her remarks, bananas are the most widely bought fruit in the UK. Indeed, in 2010 they accounted for 27 per cent of all fresh fruit purchases. Incidentally, we buy more fair trade bananas than the rest of the world combined. My noble friend asked about the labelling of fair trade bananas and why they did not identify their country of origin. I imagine that the boxes in which the bananas are carried into stores will state their country of origin. I am not sure of the answer to the question about their individual packaging, but I will write to my noble friend. It is true that we are the main source for fair trade bananas. I was interested to hear that earlier today the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, spotted fair trade bananas in the Bishops' Bar.
	The price of bananas has fallen by around 10 per cent over the past 10 years, due to more efficient production and distribution. Further reductions on tariffs should help maintain this trend. The noble Earl asked what the Government were doing to combat a banana price war. The market will always determine the price of commodities; it is not the role of Governments to seek to control that.
	The Geneva agreement will also support the industry, as the more efficient producers will be able to compete more fairly. I will come shortly to support for the Caribbean area, but in the long term, the agreement will support Caribbean and other ACP economies as it will encourage efficient production or diversification into other economic sectors better suited to local conditions.
	While removing discriminatory tariffs is the right approach, of course I recognise that adapting to a new set of circumstances brings a number of challenges to producers in Africa and the Caribbean, as has been identified by noble Lords this evening. It is therefore right that countries are given time to adjust, and it is why the Geneva agreement will take up to nine years to be fully implemented.
	My noble friend Lady Hooper asked whether the agreement is working. It is too early to assess the full impact of the agreement on both the Latin American and ACP producers. It is worth pointing out that since 2009 when the agreement first came into force, the share of the EU market has in broad terms remained unchanged in that the Latin American countries have retained about 70 per cent of the market. My noble friend Lady Benjamin gave specific statistics regarding individual ACP countries; I am afraid that I do not have them in front of me, but the total figure in terms of region has remained steady. That said, when the agreement was finalised, the Commission clearly assessed its potential impact. It calculated that the tariff changes were unlikely to have any major macroeconomic impact on the ACP group of countries as a whole. However, the Commission's analysis also concluded that there could be significant loss of export revenue for some, in particular for Dominica and St Vincent. There could be consequences for some individual producers if cost-saving measures were not introduced, leading to job losses and localised social difficulties-in other words, if those producers did not or could not increase their efficiency in order to compete.
	The Commission's overall assessment was the rationale for providing further assistance-the banana accompanying measures, or BAMs as they are sometimes known and have been referred to by several noble Lords this evening-on top of the restructuring activities that had been undertaken with EC funding from 1994 until 2008. This assistance package of up to €190 million should be the final tranche of support for banana producers either to increase their international competitiveness for the adoption of new technology or diversify into other economic sectors. Several noble Lords asked what might follow the four-year period. It is worth pointing out that one of the reasons why it has been possible for the European Union to introduce these BAMs and the support is precisely because they are temporary. Had they been a permanent measure, they would not have been compliant with the WTO agreement.
	The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lady Benjamin, along with others, expressed disappointment about these funds having yet to reach the producers they are meant to help. We share that disappointment. Initially, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, indicated, the problem was related to internal wrangling over competence between the Commission and the European Parliament. However, noble Lords will be pleased to know that, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has indicated, this has now been resolved. That resolution means that there are no further excuses for delay. To that end, the head of DfID's office in the Caribbean has raised the issue of slow disbursement rates with the Commission, most recently on a visit to Brussels last December. We have been lobbying our European partners in Brussels as well. This evening I can at least share with noble Lords that the EC delegation expects approval for disbursement for Jamaica and Belize in summer 2012. We need to keep up the pressure-I will certainly use this evening's debate as a way of providing ammunition for our representatives in the region-but at the moment that is as much as I can offer.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: If I had been as courteous as the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, I would have welcomed the Minister to the debate and to the Dispatch Box. She has been very helpful. As I have said on several occasions, I have great respect for our Ministers in DfID, Andrew Mitchell, Alan Duncan and Stephen O'Brien. We have a very good team there. Surely one of them could go over to Brussels, as Clare Short and I used to, to give them a shaking and make sure that this money gets flowing as quickly as possible. That is something that can be done. We have a powerful team there. If the Minister draws attention to the widespread support across every Bench in this Chamber, whichever one of them goes can go with our wholehearted blessing.

Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I think they will hear that message loud and clear from the noble Lord, for which I am grateful.
	Despite the setback on BAMs, previous assistance given to banana producers is having some effect. Some countries, namely Cameroon, Belize, Suriname and Ivory Coast, are increasing production and continue to use EC trade assistance funds to increase their competitiveness. I am conscious of the time so I will keep rattling on. However, some countries no longer find it economic to continue in banana production. Other producers have opted to diversify into other sectors such as poultry farming, or on-farm agriprocessing. In Jamaica, 35,000 people have benefited from 15 projects supported by the EC's special framework programme for banana producers.
	Very briefly, there may well be scope in my noble friend's suggestion of using bananas as a new source of energy. I will certainly inquire and, if there is anything to report, come back to my noble friend.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Howells, and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, raised the serious issue of drugs and whether some banana producers might turn to producing drugs if they go out of business. Obviously the drugs trade is a pernicious problem and requires the international community to work together to tackle it effectively. We are working closely with the Governments of the Caribbean to eradicate this problem. I am not aware of any evidence that ex-banana growers are more likely than others to take up drug production or trade but it is clearly something that we need to watch out for. Indeed, it was raised at the UK-Caribbean Forum last month, as my noble friend Lady Benjamin mentioned.
	There is much that I could cover in my closing remarks but I am conscious of the time. However, I should like to say that, separate from our responsibilities via the EU, the UK Government are doing a great deal to support the Caribbean. We have the interests of the people of the Caribbean very close to our hearts. Four British Ministers, including the Foreign Secretary himself, participated in last month's UK-Caribbean Forum in Grenada, at which agreement was reached on an action plan to co-operate on a series of programmes to promote economic resilience, tackling climate change, the environment and sustainable development. The Minister of State for International Development announced the first grants under our new £10 million contribution to the Compete Caribbean initiative for private sector development and job creation.
	Several noble Lords have raised the issue of air passenger duty. There was an Oral Question on this topic only two weeks ago, so I will not repeat the points made at that time. However, at that same event to which I have just referred, the issue was raised and the difficulties were acknowledged by my right honourable friend William Hague.
	I conclude by saying that we will continue to monitor closely the impact of the Geneva agreement on the banana industry. Most importantly, we believe the combined effect of increased free trade via the agreement, together with the support we are providing to the ACP countries more generally, should provide economic benefits for the peoples in all the countries directly affected.
	It has been a great privilege to respond to the debate today. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
	 — 
	Committee (8th Day) (Continued)

Amendment 177AA
	 Moved by Lord Ramsbotham
	177AA: After Clause 71, insert the following new Clause-
	"Community supervision requirement for offenders aged 18 to 25
	(1) In section 177 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, after paragraph (l) insert-
	"(la) in a case where the offender is aged 18 or over and under 25, an intensive community supervision requirement,".
	(2) The court if it makes a community order which imposes an activity requirement, may specify in relation to that requirement a number of days which is more than 90 but not more than 180.
	(3) An activity requirement made under subsection (2) is referred to in this Part as an "intensive community supervision requirement".
	(4) A community order which imposes an intensive community supervision requirement must also impose-
	(a) a supervision requirement, and
	(b) a curfew requirement (and accordingly, if so required, an electronic monitoring requirement).
	(5) A community order which imposes an intensive community supervision requirement (and other requirements in accordance with subsection (4)) is referred to in this Part as "a community order with intensive community supervision" (whether or not it also imposes any other requirement)."

Lord Ramsbotham: Since my noble friend Lord Adebowale is not in his place and as I have my name to the amendment, I hope that I may say what I was going to say anyway in support of it. This amendment and the two following amendments to which I shall be speaking, Amendments 177B and 177C, refer to a group of offenders who traditionally have been disregarded for too long, certainly as far as the Prison Service is concerned: namely, those who are over the age of 18, and therefore no longer children, and those in the young adult group who are aged either 21 or 25. That latter age occurs increasingly in people's thoughts. My noble friend proposes that a community supervision requirement for offenders aged 18 to 25 should be earnestly considered.
	In 1997, when I was Chief Inspector of Prisons, I conducted a thematic review, which I entitled Young Prisoners, because I was enormously concerned that prisoners in this age group were simply not being looked after, particularly in view of the arrival of the Youth Justice Board. The Youth Justice Board was successful because it laid down conditions for the treatment of children in custody and in the community. However, in custody, in what were called split sites, where there were people between the ages of 15 and 18 and 18 and 21, the facilities were not sufficient to provide adequate support for both groups. However, to honour the requirements of the contracts laid down by the Youth Justice Board, the Prison Service made the facilities available first for the use of children and then what was left was available for young offenders aged 18 to 21. Unfortunately, this meant that very little provision was left in many places-little educational and employment provision and little use of gym facilities. In particular, given the demands of the Children Act, staff were not available to do much with these prisoners and far too many of them spent all their time in their cells doing nothing.
	I advocated three things in 1997. My report states:
	"While there is a policy section, no one in the Prison Service has operational responsibility for young people: consequently there is an absence of overall vision and leadership in the development of regimes to challenge criminal attitudes and behaviour and prepare young offenders for a future free from offending".
	The report also states:
	"Young adults should be separately managed by a reshaped organisation within the Prison Service which should be led and managed by a Director of Young Prisoners accountable to the Director General for all establishments or parts of establishments holding young adults",
	and that:
	"Units holding young adult prisoners should have performance criteria related to specific outcomes for young prisoners, some of which should be shared with other Criminal Justice and community agencies".
	Unfortunately, absolutely nothing has happened. There is still a policy branch in NOMS, but there is no one responsible and accountable for these people. That applies in NOMS, and therefore, more worryingly, both to prison and probation. There is no one responsible and accountable for seeing that proper programmes are designed for this group.
	Following the riots, the Prison Reform Trust published a splendid document this year called Old Enough to Know Better, about young adults in the criminal justice system. The report stated:
	"The criminal justice system is failing to divert impressionable young men and women from falling into a pattern of offending in the first place and doing little to help them turn their lives around when they do. The independent panel investigating the cause of the riots has specifically identified the lack of support for young people moving from the youth to the adult justice system".
	In other words, although change was called for in 1997, nothing is there. If there is nothing there, we must expect problems with this group-problems that have been graphically outlined by the independent panel investigating the riots, quite apart from consistent reports from my successors as Chief Inspectors of Prisons.
	I should like to quote from the last such report that I read, which was about HM Prison Isis-the newest prison opened by the Prison Service, which is uniquely catering for young men aged 18 to 25. This is what the chief inspector said:
	"The prison had made progress since it was first opened but there was still a long way to go ... At the heart of the challenges ... were poor staff-prisoner relationships ... Overall, too many staff appeared to lack the confidence or motivation to deliver their responsibilities effectively ... The most disappointing consequence ... was its impact on prisoners' education, training and work. Isis is a new, purpose-built, training prison for young men, opened at a time when the government has made keeping prisoners productively busy and occupied a key part of its prisons agenda. That being the case, maximising prisoners' involvement in education, training and work should be a key objective for every member of staff. This was not so. Despite some good quality provision, there was no overarching strategy to ensure the prison delivered its central training role. There were insufficient activity places but of those available, only 60% were occupied and punctuality was poor ... The prison claimed that prisoners spent an average of six and a half hours out of their cells a day, but we found that working prisoners could achieve five and a half hours and some prisoners as little as two hours. We found half of all the prisoners locked in their cells during the working part of the day".
	If that is the state in prisons where still no one is responsible-and there you have a purpose-built prison designed for this group, where half the prisoners are locked in their cells during the working part of a day, the working prisoners are only achieving something like five and a half hours, and the facilities are not being used-there is clearly a problem.
	The amendment of my noble friend Lord Adebowale, who is now in his place, is talking not about the prisons but particularly about the community services. The reason I mentioned prisons first was because throughout these Committee proceedings and in the document, Breaking the Cycle, on which a lot of the Bill is based, getting people into effective community sentences has been mentioned as the best way of achieving the aim of reducing the prison population.
	I am sure that my noble friend Lord Adebowale will mention an initiative which shows great promise if it is allowed to be developed. I refer to the intensive alternative-to-custody schemes run by Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire probation trusts, tailored to the specific needs of young adults. The lesson is that the present system is incapable of providing the goods in prison. If we have the classic example of intensive alternatives to custody being provided by the probation service locally, in the community, surely we should develop it. I am sure that that is what my noble friend will be saying and it is certainly what I support. Those programmes are achieving good compliance rates, and experienced probation officers to whom I have spoken say that they present to them their first real opportunity to create the requirements that will change offending behaviour. They are also strongly supported by the local magistrates in Manchester to whom I have spoken; I have not spoken to magistrates in West Yorkshire.
	Bearing in mind that this group has always been a problem because they are neither children nor adults-they are in between and need to be prevented from going down the long road of adult crime-I return to what I have said on many occasions in this House on many aspects of prison: for heaven's sake, please can we have someone in charge responsible and accountable for seeing that proper programmes are conducted? Unless we have someone like that, nothing will happen.
	The policy branch to which I referred in 1997 is there. Nothing is happening. You can lay down policy until you are blue in the face, but unless someone is responsible and accountable for delivering it, it will not happen. This group needs it. We have the example of the intensive alternatives to custody. Please let us develop this for this age group in every probation trust in the country. At the same time, let us take on board the lessons from the inspection report on HMP Isis and make certain that, where they are in custody, there is proper provision and none of them is left idle in their cell, but that they are presented with full, purposeful and active days, which are the only thing that will enable them to live useful and law-abiding lives. I beg to move.

Lord Adebowale: My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to Amendment 177AA and I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for being here when I was not and to the Minister for allowing me to speak. I apologise to the House for my tardiness; I could not get here fast enough, cheese and biscuits held me a little too long.
	My amendment would introduce a new intensive sentence for young adult offenders, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned. We live in an age where we need to present excuse removers for not doing something about a critical problem. If we carry on doing what we have always done, we should not be surprised if we get what we always have had. Those aged 18 to 20 years old are a particular problem. I guess that the Minister, or at least his officials, will find some fault in the wording of my amendment, but I hope that he will be able to respond positively to the policy concerns that I am raising alongside the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.
	Young adults continue to be significantly overrepresented in the prison population, with a very high reoffending rate often following short periods in custody. At the end of September 2011, there were 8,317 young people aged 18 to 20 in prison in England and Wales. In the 12 months to June 2011, 12,509 18, 19 and 20 year-olds were sent to prison under sentence. The vast majority of them are young men; a disproportionate number are from black and minority ethnic communities. I am not sure that there are any official statistics detailing the exact number, but I know that almost 40 per cent of the population of young people in jail under 18 are from BME backgrounds, and we can assume that the figure for 18 to 20 year-olds is similar.
	Although there are pockets of good practice, prison simply does not deliver for those young men, especially those serving short sentences. Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons specifically raised concerns about young adults sentenced to detention in young offender institutions, describing his impression of,
	"young men sleeping through their sentences",
	in Her Majesty's Young Offender Institution, Rochester, for example. He has also noted a lack of engagement in work, education and training opportunities across the youth offending estate, which again speaks to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about leadership, and the fact that these things just do not work.
	I have spent probably half a lifetime's work in the not-for-profit and voluntary sector trying to help homeless and unemployed young people from disadvantaged communities to seize the positive opportunities available to them. I am actually optimistic about young people in Britain today, which is not something that you hear very often. However, none of us should be under any illusion about the negative temptations that most deprived youngsters face. I believe it is the responsibility not just of the not-for-profit sector but of the state to help those young men and women to turn their lives around when they have made bad choices.
	That is why I was very pleased to hear about the young adult offender project, which was set by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, during her time as a Minister in the previous Government. Sadly, the working group that she set up did not survive her promotion to a different post, but one of the good things that came out of it, as was mentioned by the noble Lord earlier, was the intensive alternative to custody scheme-the IAC pilots around the country. The Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire IAC pilots were focused on the young adult age group in question, and over the past two years they have demonstrated great success in turning around the lives of young men who are on a path to becoming persistent offenders and perhaps hardened criminals. Experienced probation officers describe it as the first real opportunity that they have had to create a package of requirements that will change offending behaviour, and local magistrates are very supportive of this model.
	These models involved tailored interventions, intensive supervision, enhanced monitoring, 30 hours' activity per week, curfews, an accredited programme, unpaid work, court reviews progress and swift action on non-compliance-ingredients which are more likely to lead to a reduction in recidivism than what we provide at the moment. The Ministry of Justice funded the IAC pilot scheme but this funding ended in April last year, and the seven individual probation trusts are trying to find ways of mainstreaming it into their services as intensive community orders. Unfortunately, that is in just two of the 30-odd probation areas in England and Wales. The Prisons and Probation Minister, Crispin Blunt, told the other place:
	"There was never an intention to extend funding centrally beyond the end of the pilots".-[Official Report, Commons, 13/5/11; col. 1362W.]
	I accept that no commitment was ever given to extend this funding but I am not persuaded that there was no intention to extend the pilots should they prove successful. It seems bizarre that something should prove successful and that funding should then be stopped at a time of economic restraint. Of course, the real judgment is whether there is sufficient evidence of their success. That is why it is disappointing that we are still waiting for the Ministry of Justice to determine whether it will commission a full evaluation of the pilots. I do not wish to detain the Committee for much longer but I hope that the Minister will tell us today how this evaluation is going and whether it is now under way.
	The Prison Reform Trust has just published a new report on young adults in the criminal justice system, as has already been mentioned. It specifically highlights the good work of the IAC, particularly in Manchester, and it is worth finishing with an example. Lee is currently 10 months into his 12-month IAC order after being convicted of theft with violence. His father and uncle have also both served time in prison. He spent the first three months of the IAC with a tag, which he found helped him to avoid getting into further trouble. The IAC team helped Lee to find accommodation, have regular contact with his baby daughter and complete his construction skills card. In his own words, Lee says:
	"The IAC team has helped me grow up and come to a realisation that, even though this is a punishment, it is helpful. It's pretty intensive when you come here. At the same time, it's made me aware that reoffending is going to be more detrimental than anything. After twelve months in here, it's not really something I'd do now. They've given me other options, like going on different courses. Plus, because my offence is drink related, I had to learn to curb my drinking. It's made it a lot more unlikely for me to reoffend".
	Some of the issues facing young adults in the criminal justice system were raised in the House of Commons during the debate on an amendment to the youth cautioning regime. Responding to the debate, the Minister said:
	"We need to ensure that, given the colossal cost of failing to turn this particular age group around, we find ways to get interventions and investment into it, which will then deliver savings to the Ministry of Justice, because of the huge advantage of getting these people better and making them pro-social members of society".
	He went on to say:
	"I accept the ... general point about 18 to 20-year-olds presenting a particular challenge, and we need to be imaginative about how we deal with that".-[Official Report, Commons, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee, 13/10/11; col. 800.]
	I hope the Minister will agree that this amendment is exactly the kind of imaginative thinking that his colleague wants to see.

Lord Bach: My Lords, one of the advantages of these debates is that we will hear proposals for new ways to divert people from custody. Any amendment that carries the names of both noble Lords, Lord Adebowale and Lord Ramsbotham, needs careful and sympathetic attention because both their histories in helping particularly young people who find themselves in potential conflict with the criminal justice system are proud records, and they have a lot to teach us. We are sympathetic to the idea behind this amendment, not least because of its reported success in the pilot areas where it has been tried out.
	Noble Lords will know that Section 177 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 includes a series of requirements for persons aged 18 or over who are convicted of an offence. Those requirements include,
	"(e) a curfew requirement ... (k) a supervision requirement",
	and the list goes all the way to paragraph (l). There are all sorts of different requirements, and there has been no reticence to acknowledge that divergence from custody and the treatment of the underlying issues-whether they be mental health or socioeconomic-are important and can be more effective than custody. It is not legislators who have been afraid of proposing alternative measures.
	One of the problems is the availability of schemes which are often administered by local authorities, the probation services, youth offending teams or other diverse, multi-departmental agencies. The idea for a new community supervision requirement seems an amalgamation in one sense of powers (e) and (k) from the list that I read out earlier-but probably because it is a combination of the two, it is the stronger for it. It is a recognition that, in that transition to adulthood, a community sentence that helps to socialise people to realise that what they are doing is wrong can be a powerful and tough sentence.
	There are two elements to the amendment that I want to touch on briefly. As has already been said, there is a growing recognition that there is not a cut-off point at 18 for beginning crime or carrying on with crime. The years between 14 and 24 are generally considered prime offending years, with delinquent behaviour tending to start in early teenage and tailing off at age 21 to 24. Perhaps these things are not entirely surprising; but because of them, it seems sensible to choose the ages between 18 and 25 for this new requirement. We are sympathetic to the amendment. If it has been as successful as has been claimed in the debate, the Government should be sympathetic, too. I look forward to hearing from the noble Baroness.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank the noble Lords for their amendment. Young adult offenders are a particularly difficult group and outcomes are not always as we would wish. I have a great deal of sympathy with the intentions here.
	The amendment proposes a new requirement of the adult community order called,
	"an intensive community supervision requirement",
	available for offenders aged 18 to 24. It is clearly intended to mirror the intensive rehabilitation order available for juveniles. I agree that we need to reduce the level of reoffending by young adult offenders and that more intensive engagement may very well have a role to play. However, we need to find ways of achieving this without further complicating the legislative framework and constraining how the needs of this age group will be addressed.
	Affordability is, of course, critical. If we were to create extra burdens through statute by delivering intensive interventions, supervision and surveillance to this age group, the Government would not have the resources to deliver what we prescribed. We want to see more effective and efficient use of resources, with payment by results and competition being used to secure improved outcomes for 18 to 24 year-olds and other offenders. A range of interventions may be used to achieve these outcomes, and we wish to avoid prescribing which approach must be used with different age groups.
	I heard about the problems at Isis, and the MoJ will be commenting in due course. I also note what noble Lords have said about intensive alternatives to custody. The Green Paper Breaking the Cycle said that the Government were looking at how the IAC principles could be extended nationally. The analysis of the reoffending rates of offenders who took part in the IAC pilots is under way at the moment. We will write to noble Lords as soon as the results are available. I hope that is useful to noble Lords.
	The spirit of the amendment ties in very well with work that we are already doing to improve community sentences generally. In addition to provisions in the Bill to strengthen community sentences, we want to deliver a step change in the way they operate. They must address the problems that have caused the offending behaviour in the first place: the drug abuse, alcoholism and mental health problems that noble Lords have referred to. They must also punish properly and send a clear message to society that wrongdoing will not be tolerated. We are hoping to provide sentences with a much improved community sentence offering a robust and credible punishment to deal with both young and old offenders. To this end, we are currently conducting a review of adult community sentences and hope to publish a consultation document shortly. I encourage noble Lords to feed into that. In the light of my comments, I hope the noble Lord will accept that this is not a necessary step to take at this stage and will accordingly withdraw his amendment.

Lord Adebowale: Has there been any cost comparison between the IAC model and the cost of keeping a young person in prison and the concomitant cost of recidivism? The Minister seemed to imply that there is a cost implication in the IAC. Has any work been done on the comparison?

Baroness Northover: We are acutely aware of the cost of keeping people in prison. Obviously it is not only for cost reasons that you try to keep people out of prison, but given that it is a costly route, other measures can be measured against it.

Lord Adebowale: I am not quite sure that that is the answer. Like many noble Lords who have amendments to this Bill, I feel that we have not hit pay dirt here. We have what I, and I think many others, consider to be an excuse remover in terms of the IAC model and the leadership required, which my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham mentioned in his speech. I look forward to further conversations with the Minister on this issue. I do not feel it will go away and I do not want to be here in a couple of years' time making the same speech as recidivism goes through the roof. However, if the Minister is open to a conversation with me and my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham on that matter, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 177AA withdrawn.
	Clause 72 agreed.
	Clause 73 : Referral orders for young offenders
	Amendment 177B
	 Moved by Lord Ramsbotham
	177B: Clause 73, page 53, line 9, at beginning insert-
	"( ) In section 16(1) of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (duty or power to refer certain young offenders to youth offender panels) for "18" substitute "21"."

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 177C. These amendments are complementary to Amendment 177AA because they refer to the group called young adults. In this connection, I remind the House that on many occasions I have said in other debates that the trouble with the criminal justice system is that the Ministry of Justice simply does not know the cost of imprisonment or probation. That is not to say that it does not know how much money is given to it for prison and probation, but it does not know how much money is needed to do the things that it says it wants to do with and for offenders. Until it knows how much money it needs to do with and for, it cannot know how much it does not have and therefore what it cannot do, and therefore what it needs to ask for in order for it to be able to do more.
	This is something that always amazed me from the moment I went into the Home Office in 1995 because every year in the Ministry of Defence we used to go through what was called a basket-weaving exercise. We would be asked to cost the White Paper or whatever targets we had been given. We did that. Inevitably it came up that more money was needed to do what we had to do than we have been given, so the Ministers were asked to go and try to get more money out of the Treasury. They never did, so we then had to go through what we called a basket-weaving exercise, where you put what you had to do into "desirable", "essential" and "nice to have" baskets. Then you went to the Ministers and said, "Look, here are the implications are of not having enough money. What are we not to do?", and then it was up to the Ministers to make the decision.
	I thought, naively, when I went into the Home Office in 1995 and heard people saying there was not enough money, that this is what would have happened and the Ministers would therefore know what they could not do and what they needed to ask for. Nobody knew-nobody knows now. There is all this talk about not having enough resources-we do not actually know how many resources we have got to apply to which because we have not done the total sum. This is something that needs to be done in order to get discipline into the system. But that is by the way.
	I welcome the reforms in Clause 73 that give flexibility to the courts in their response to individual offences and encourage specific support needed to reform a child's behaviour. But that is talking about children. The purpose of these amendments is to extend this approach to young adults by requiring the Probation Service to replicate the work of youth offending teams with children in what are called referral orders. The figures suggest that these referral orders for children, which encompass a restorative justice approach within a community setting and have been available to sentencers since 2002, have the lowest reoffending rates of all juvenile court-imposed sentences. One-half of those given a custodial sentence reoffend within one year, and two-thirds within two, but the rate for referral orders is 37 per cent-not great, but a great deal less than that for custodial sentences.
	The Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 made provision for referral orders except for offences so serious that they merited custodial sentences or so minor that they merited only a fine or an absolute discharge. This ruling was amended by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, which laid down that referral orders must be imposed when children aged 10 to 17 plead guilty to an offence that is punishable with imprisonment but have not been previously been convicted of an offence. That refers to first-time offenders as children. Orders may also be imposed when an offender who is pleading guilty has already been convicted of another offence, or where a youth offender team recommends that a second referral order may be beneficial. That provided some flexibility in the system.
	Courts determine the length of orders, which may be between three and 12 months, extendable for a further three, and under them children are referred to a youth offending panel of two volunteers representing the local community and an experienced youth offender team worker. The panel reviews offences and their consequences with the offender and his or her parents. Following that, the offender signs a contract, which can be varied according to circumstances but which has two core elements: first, reparation or restoration to the victim or the wider community; secondly, a programme of interventions that are designed to address the risk of reoffending.
	The panel monitors the compliance of the offender and if at the end of the referral period the contract has been successfully completed, the conviction is declared spent. If, however, offenders are unwilling to agree a contract, or fail to comply with it, they are referred back to the court, which may revoke the order and impose an alternative sentence. Youth offender teams are required to provide regular reports on the operation of referral orders to judges, magistrates and their legal advisers. That process underlies some of the other things about which we have been talking because they provide flexibility and the ability to relate what is going on to the needs and problems of the particular offender.
	Along with many others, I believe that the time is now right to build on this proven success and to extend referral orders to 18 to 20 year-olds or possibly even 18 to 25 year-olds in line with what my noble friend Lord Adebowale has just proposed. If this is accepted, a decision will have to be made as to who is to lead the panels. At present, the remit of youth offender teams covers children only up to the age of 18. Speaking to the chairman of the Youth Justice Board, I know that she would not be happy for the remit to be extended to the older group because the youth offender teams have to look after children down to the age of 10. Therefore, it seems absolutely natural that this responsibility should be passed to the probation service, which takes on the responsibility at the age of 18, and probation trusts, which is what I favour because they are the people who have the financial responsibility for this age group.
	However, given the very high reoffending rates in this group, I believe that there are very strong grounds for requiring the probation service-I mean requiring it-to deliver more targeted interventions for young adult offenders and referral orders seem to be a very strong model to follow. Until now, the probation service has not had a strong portfolio of programmes suited to this group, which is one of the contributors to its very high reoffending rate. I beg to move.

Lord Judd: My Lords, I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply because this is a point on which he should give particularly serious consideration. Let me make two observations. First, if we are not doing this job thoroughly and well-the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has suggested that we are not-we are wasting all the money because considerable public expenditure is going into a task which is not doing what is needed. Therefore, if we want to get a proper return for the taxpayer, we should be certain that what we are doing is appropriate and effective.
	Secondly, this age extension covers a crucial part of the young person's life. It is the threshold from being young to joining the adult community. We should think of the amount of discussion and debate that we have in this House about higher education, further education, universities and all that. We are certain that we want to prepare our young people for the most productive and effective future possible. As things stand, we may be denying that possibility to people on this threshold and, through an inadequate response to what they really need, may be setting them off on a course which will result in one failure after another and, all too likely, reoffending and the rest.
	From that standpoint, this makes eminent good sense. It will be a challenge to the probation service but it relates to issues that we have been discussing on other amendments when we have alluded to the probation service. I am really worried that its culture is changing so that, in effect, it has a kind of custodial role without the person actually being institutionalised, as distinct from playing a sensitive, imaginative and engaged role in dealing with young individuals, doing what is necessary to get them on a positive and constructive course and working out how that should be done. In asking the probation service to do this-and I think the amendment is correct in that sense-we must realise that there is an issue to be tackled in terms of the prevailing culture in the service itself.

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I have added my name to one of these amendments and I have great sympathy for what is proposed in the other one as well, so I strongly support what has been said. I would like to believe that not only will this work in terms of this being set out in referral orders and the probation trusts taking on their new role, but also that we could somehow link this to the previous discussion introduced by my noble friends Lord Adebowale and Lord Ramsbotham about provision for 18 to 25 year-olds. The more we think about this age group, we can see how important it is to ensure the possibility of young people growing up with enough of the right support, education and training to have a real opportunity of leading more ordinary lives and not reoffending.
	I wish we had more figures on what the actual costs are, because I should have thought it would be worth working out the budgets and spending enough to make this work. I am quite certain that it would be much cheaper than the cost of someone continually going to prison. I hope that the Minister will give this serious consideration.

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, I rise to add briefly to what has been said for two reasons. The first is the growing concern in the business about the lack of adequate work being carried out on behalf of people in this age group. They are missing out. In missing out, they bring in their wake a whole range of the problems and difficulties that we have been talking about. It means that they are more vulnerable and needy, and that they need more attention.
	Anecdotally, I should say that I have sat in on referral orders, particularly the restorative conferences that are now run rather routinely. These are remarkable and really quite moving occasions. A young 18 year-old suddenly faces the reality of what it was they unthinkingly had done, and how important that is. It is also important in the context of the ongoing support that the referral order requires and thus implies in terms of support from the probation service. It is right to say that this does not come without a price tag, but when you compare price tags you realise where the dice should fall, and therein lies the challenge for the Government because everyone is judging them on where they are going to make cuts. It is an extremely difficult equation which does not really measure up, except to say that if we do not address this hitherto undersupported group, we are going to pay a huge price. The referral orders that are being discussed are really very creative and impressive, and mark a good way forward.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I can be very short. These are amendments that appeal to us, too. Referral orders, which were created in the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, seem to work pretty well. Increasing the age from 18 to 21 is a sensible course to take. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, asked whether they should not be extended to an age greater than 21. We talked in the previous debate about the crucial years between 18 and 25, and 21 seems a slightly arbitrary figure. I think that I understand why it is in the amendment, but it would perhaps make more sense if the age went between 18 and 25. Twenty-one is not an age where you begin to say, "This is where offending ceases"; it is usually a bit later than that, although it is very difficult to generalise on such things. If we are going to take this course-we will certainly be interested to hear what the Government have to say about it-to extend the age from 18 to 25 would be a better course than from 18 to 21.
	As far as the probation service is concerned, there are great concerns, as my noble friend Lord Judd has said. The second amendment in this group quite rightly suggests that the probation service is probably the best venue for those over 21. Once again, we look forward to hearing what the Government's attitude is towards this innovative idea.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was a Minister in the Ministry of Justice during the previous Administration. In a number of debates, I have supported raising the age for referrals. Did the noble Lord undertake any costing at that stage in terms of what additional resources would be required, as against the benefit that would accrue? My fear is that the probation service in many parts of the country is nearly at breaking point. At the end of the day, the question of additional resources will boil down to whether money is available to do the work. Does the noble Lord have any information that might advance this debate further?

Lord Bach: My Lords, our time in government retreats into the mists of time day by day, month by month, and my memory fails. I certainly am not in a position to answer the specific question that the noble Lord asks, but to say that there were not concerns about the probation service at the time would be to tell an untruth. Some of the cuts that our Government felt were necessary to make-as do the present Government, too-related to the probation service. One of the achievements of my then ministerial colleague, the honourable Maria Eagle, was to make sure that the cuts were not so great as originally planned and that the probation service had some extra resources that it was not expecting. However, I have to concede that it was not a period, particularly in the latter years, when the probation service was getting as much money as it needed to deal with the problem.
	On costs, I think that the noble Lord's noble friend Lady Linklater had it right, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. Comparing costs is very difficult throughout the Bill, not least in this particular area. I am sorry that I cannot help the noble Lord with more detail.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I was very struck by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, dividing things between those which were desirable and those which were essential, and pointing to the need to prioritise. It has struck me that this Bill is above all about prioritising. It would be wonderful to be in government when there was a great deal of money to lubricate things but, even when that is the case, not all problems are corrected. We have just heard of an earlier period where, certainly during the early years, there was much more money to lubricate things yet problems persisted.
	As I mentioned on the last group, we very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that young adult offenders present a real challenge. We agree that improved outcomes among this group need to be achieved. The referral order has a specific place in the under-18 sentencing framework, with compulsory conditions requiring courts to make one-in most cases-where someone aged under 18 is being dealt with by the court for the first time and pleads guilty. It has characteristics that would not be appropriate for young adults. The noble Lord referred to one of these-that the young offender is required to appear before a youth offender panel with their parents to explain their offending. The offender must agree to a contract which will include reparation to the victim or wider community and a programme of activities designed to rehabilitate them.
	An important feature of the referral order is that the court can require the parents of under-18s to attend the panel, so they are directly engaged by the process and encouraged to take responsibility for their child. The process also provides an opportunity for parents who need help in dealing with their child to be directed to parenting programmes which can provide them with the skills and confidence to become better parents.
	The referral order is an effective sentence for young people under 18 years of age and through it we wish to promote the increased use of restorative justice. Yet we cannot simply extend it to cover 18 to 20 year-olds. Our commitment is to build capacity and capability for restorative justice, including the adult justice system, which is why we are investing over £1 million in funding for training and the provision of best practice standards and guidance in the youth and adult systems. We will also be consulting shortly on the use of restorative justice in the adult system as part of community sentences and how we can encourage good practice in this area. Doubtless, the noble Lord will feed his very interesting idea into that.
	As I have already indicated, the Government have-as ever-considerable sympathy with the noble Lord's motivations in tabling these amendments and seeking a more focused approach with this age group from probation trusts. However, resources are limited. Probation trusts use individual assessment to determine the needs of offenders rather than designating need because of their age group. This is evidence-based and, in our view, the best way to use limited resources. We believe that payment by results will be a sustainable way of bringing in new approaches that will help to deliver better outcomes for offenders, including young offenders. I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed. The noble Baroness has encouraged remembrance of a phrase that I have ringing in my brain, though I cannot remember from how long ago: "There is no such word as can't". I feel that that there is no such word in this connection. I hope in raising this amendment that I have accentuated the need to look at this age group. I deliberately said that I saw no reason why it could not be extended to 18 to 25 as opposed to 18 to 21 because there has been a debate about this for a long time. It is time that that was ended.
	Young adults ought to be categorised, stopping at either 21 or 25, but not going on with the lack of clarity which means that no arrangements are made for the group that really needs help, either as adults or as young adults. That is why I go back to the fact that until and unless someone is made responsible for doing that, nothing will happen. I appeal to the Minister to think very closely about appointing somebody to do it. I hope that they will then lead a debate in which I know that all noble Lords who have spoken here and many others would be very willing to co-operate. This is too serious an issue to allow to go by default. I hope that we may have a discussion about this before Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
	Amendment 177B withdrawn.
	Amendment 177C not moved.
	Amendment 177CA had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
	Clause 73 agreed.
	Clauses 74 to 78 agreed.
	Amendment 177D not moved.
	Amendment 177DA
	 Moved by Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede
	177DA: After Clause 78, insert the following new Clause-
	"Youth rehabilitation order: restorative justice requirement
	(1) In section 1(1) of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (youth rehabilitation order: requirements), after paragraph (o) insert-
	"(p) the court may include in a youth rehabilitation order a restorative justice requirement."
	(2) Schedule (Restorative justice requirement: Criminal Justice Act 2003) shall have effect."

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: My Lords, this group of amendments seeks to address an opportunity to introduce restorative justice into the Bill. Indeed, in the previous group of the amendments, the noble Baroness spoke of the Government's enthusiasm for restorative justice and the amount of money that they are investing in it. Restorative justice was referred to in favourable terms in the original Green Paper. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, has spoken, too, with real strength of feeling on restorative justice. He has said:
	"Restorative justice is not a soft option. Facing up to wrongdoing can be a difficult and unpleasant process".
	I agree with that, but I add for myself that I think that it is a necessary part of the restorative justice process. I take it as read that all parties are in favour of adding a restorative justice provision to the sentences tool kit.
	My Amendments 177DA and 177G specifically address youth sentences. Magistrates in youth courts need to have confidence, of course, that non-custodial alternatives to custody will work, and restorative justice, including conferencing, has a definite place in the right circumstances. If it were a specific requirement of a youth rehabilitation order, which is the burden of my amendments, it would emphasise its value and ensure that restorative justice is at the front of the sentencers' minds when they come up with the sentence. The whole principle of youth sentencing is that youths often lack the maturity of adults and, in particular, may well not have considered the effects of their behaviour on their victims. It is true and proven that restorative justice can bring this home in a powerful way.
	I accept that at present a restorative justice requirement could be requested as part of a supervision requirement or activity requirement. These obviously already exist, but the advantage of introducing a specific restorative justice requirement would be to keep that option at the forefront of magistrates' or judges' minds when they are sentencing.
	The amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, take a more ambitious approach, in that he specifically addresses the question of remand and having a pre-sentence restorative justice programme which would form part of a pre-sentence report. Presumably-although the noble and learned Lord will speak to the amendment himself-the sentencing bench would take into account how effective that pre-sentence restorative justice programme has been.
	In conclusion, I regard restorative justice as an effective took in the box. There is a substantial body of evidence that it works. I have made the point before, but I shall make it again, that judges and magistrates see the consequences of these community sentences when they fail. We see the failures, because it is the job of magistrates and justices to come up with further sentences when people fall down on their community sentences, whether in the youth or the adult courts. But I believe that restorative justice has a proven benefit and that this group of amendments presents an opportunity to put it into the heart of this Bill. On that basis, I beg to move.

Lord Woolf: My Lords, it may be appropriate if I speak now to Amendment 177DAA, which is in my name. Your Lordships will see that the amendment is supported by a trio of very distinguished names. Perhaps I may say a word about the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, who cannot be here today. Unfortunately, he has been ill but I know he was very anxious to be here to support the proposal in any way he could. The other distinguished name which I mention with deference is that of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd. He is the president of the Prison Reform Trust, and I am proud to indicate that I am its new chairman. The Prison Reform Trust and the Restorative Justice Council are very enthusiastic about these proposals.
	I was grateful for what the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said in regard to his own amendments because I certainly endorse what he said about their virtues. He also indicated that my amendment perhaps goes a bit further. That is true but although I claim no credit for this, because others more able than I played a part in it, I draw attention to the fact that the amendment proposes, first, to give the court discretion as to whether it remands,
	"the case in order that the victim shall be offered the opportunity to participate in a process".
	Because I know that the issue of costs will be high in the minds of those who appear on behalf of the Government, I also draw attention particularly to the proposal that the,
	"court may not remand the case for the purpose specified ... unless it is satisfied that arrangements for a process of restorative justice can be or have been made in the area where the offender will reside".
	This proposed new clause is really meant to cover the situation which I believe we are in.
	The virtues of restorative justice are becoming more widely known because of the hard work that has been done by various organisations in different parts of the country. I was pleased to hear what the noble Baroness said about the Government's intention on restorative justice. I am of course aware that the Minister has also spoken in its favour. Regarding this amendment, I urge that it can do something very positive. It can put the stamp of approval on restorative justice into a statutory form. It can then allow the process that has already started to continue, and as and when the positive aspects of restorative justice can be brought into practice in different areas, arrangements can be made. In this way, there can be a growth of the use of restorative justice which is in keeping with the nature of the exercise.
	In appropriate cases, it very often has a most markedly positive effect, first of all upon the victim. When we are dealing with criminal justice, it is important that we should not neglect anything that might be positive for the victim, and I am sure that the Government do not intend to do so. The other aspect is that it helps the process that, as I understand it, Government propose to adopt and will ease the exercise that needs to be performed.
	I suggest that it would be a mistake to take forward the experiments in compartments so that one looked purely at the compartment marked "Young offenders", then at the compartment marked "Young adults" and finally at the compartment marked "Adults". It is something that should be used and adapted for the appropriate case. If the amendment in my name is adopted, one advantage is that the courts will be able to develop the expertise and learn the skills that are needed so that they can readily identify the cases that this process is suited for. It is not suited for all cases-you have to learn from experience how it should be applied-but if it is appropriate to apply it, it will help the process of justice. I hope that Ministers will welcome the amendments that we hope have been drafted in a way that makes them attractive to the Government, and will feel that they should give serious consideration to them.

Lord Judd: My Lords, the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has just made is very important: that we should bring the concept of restorative justice into the mainstream of our approach to penal policy and do not leave it, as it were, as an interesting experiment only by particularly enlightened administrators within the penal system. To endorse it officially as part of penal policy is a very good principle.
	This is an immensely revolutionary concept for the whole of penal policy. It takes us away from the impersonal application of the law to the sphere of direct human relationships in which people can begin to understand the implications of what they do for the lives of other identifiable people, and that is a very important learning experience. It would also be very strengthening for society; if it took off in a big way, it could have big implications for building a strong and responsible society-what we do has consequences for other people and we have to face up to those consequences, not in terms of theory but in terms of real people with whom we are dealing in reality.
	Restorative justice has some other interesting spin-offs, which I have read about and been encouraged by. For example, it enables victims not only to have the satisfaction of recompense, which is crucial, but to become more understanding about the whole situation. I have read more than one account of how victims have begun to see that the person who perpetrated the crime against them was actually a victim themselves. That is in certain circumstances; I am not letting this argument run away with me. I am not saying that that is true in every situation, but it applies in quite a number. If we are going to have a decent society and minimise crime, it is important to see the origins of that crime and the reality of the shaping experiences in the lives of those who commit it.
	This is a significant development. I take my hat off completely to those who have pioneered it; we should give them all possible support. Endorsement in legislation would be significant assistance in what they are trying to achieve.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am delighted to lend my support to this amendment. I am in good and powerful company: the amendment is promoted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, and has the blessing of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool. Let me not exclude my noble friend Lord McNally; he and I have had numerous discussions on this matter and he has left me in no doubt that restorative justice is an essential element of the criminal justice system. The question is what procedure we adopt.
	The case for restorative justice is on the Government's agenda and its success cannot be disputed. We now need to provide the machinery which will enable retrospective justice to be set up on a clear statutory footing and give criminal justice agencies the impetus to refer cases. This is the clearest finding of the evaluation project undertaken by the University of Sheffield for the Government. We also know that victim participation rates were extremely high, with up to 77 per cent of victim participation cases involving adult offenders and up to 89 per cent of cases involving young offenders. The Government have often proclaimed that victims must be at the centre of the restorative justice process, and that is precisely what happens.
	My noble friend Lord McNally has been very sympathetic in various meetings with groups operating in the criminal justice field. We now have a former Lord Chief Justice and a former Home Secretary, with their vast experience in such matters, getting together to amend the Bill by introducing a provision to enable criminal justice agencies to offer restorative justice to victims pre-sentence when the offender pleads guilty at the first appearance. The process allows victims to participate in face-to-face meetings with offenders, thus bringing closure to their fears and trauma. Victims show satisfaction but, most importantly, the frequency of reoffending is reduced.
	Let me declare an interest: I said earlier that I chaired the Magistrates' Association commission on the future of summary justice, and our report will be out soon. We took evidence from across many parts of the country, and participants included offenders and victims. In almost all cases, victim satisfaction was highlighted. The chairman of the Magistrates' Association, John Fassenfelt, said that he has seen impressive evidence of victim satisfaction with restorative justice when it is organised to a high-quality standard and the insights it gives to offenders into the consequences of their offending. He said that if Parliament approves the amendment, the magistrates will be able to rely on probation to propose the most suitable cases, but the courts will only make the final decision to proceed if they are satisfied that it is in the interests of justice and in accordance with the wishes of the victim.
	Research studies point to the international dimension, and cases in Australia and the United States, like those in Britain, delivered very high victim satisfaction accompanied by a reduction in reoffending.
	Using the Ministry of Justice's own data, there are potential cost savings, based on 70,000 cases, of £185 million over two years. In the present economic climate, this is something that we cannot ignore. It is value for money, as it saves £9 for every £1 spent. I fully support the amendment.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I support these amendments but have one cautionary tale for the Government. Before that, I echo the words of my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf towards the end of his speech, when he said that restorative justice is not for everyone. This I remember being made very clear to me some 15 years ago when I was introduced to restorative justice by Sir Charles Pollard, then the chief constable of Thames Valley Police, to whom all those interested in restorative justice owe a huge debt of gratitude for the determination with which he has followed it.
	Not long ago, he asked me whether I would like to attend a restorative justice conference at HMP Pentonville, which was extremely ably chaired by a young policeman. The case involved three young women whose flat had been burgled by a young and chaotic man to fuel his heroin habit. During the early part of the conference it was discovered that this young man had been born of a teenage mother and had three young children himself by teenage mothers. He could not read and had an alcohol problem. The girls explained why they felt so strongly about their flat being burgled and everyone was in tears. The agreement was that the young man should be put through a drug treatment course, taught to read and put on an Alcoholics Anonymous course. As he left, and there was a spirit of hope in the room, one of the young women said to him, "Furthermore, will you write to us every month to tell us how you're getting on?", which I thought was an extremely good addition. They left in a spirit of hope and I then said to the governor of Pentonville, who was there, "How much of that can you deliver?". He said, "None". I said, "How dare you let those people go? Unless you can support what is being recommended, all the hope engendered by this process is dead".
	Therefore, if, as I hope, the Government accept these amendments, I hope they will add the rider that those who are responsible for staging the conferences and seeing that they happen must make certain that what is agreed actually happens, so that the whole process is not undermined.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, bearing in mind the cautionary tale of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I nevertheless, like him, strongly support these amendments. First, these amendments seem to suggest practical effectiveness. Most of the crimes that we are concerned with in this general purview are committed by immature young men. The evidence for restorative justice is that it gives them a sharp wake-up call and makes a dramatic contribution to their growing-up process, which is a very good reason to use restorative justice techniques.
	Secondly, restorative justice of the type that has been discussed is cost-effective. From my experience of practice, I can imagine many marginal custody situations of a kind that come before magistrates' courts and the Crown Court every day of the week-common burglary, criminal damage, lower-level assaults and other offences at a similar level-in which effective restorative justice conferences might mean the difference between custody and a community penalty, and result in a substantial saving of money to the state.
	Thirdly, I strongly support the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that this should be put into statutory form. I have a feeling that we might hear that it is not necessary to do so because it is, after all, open to judges and magistrates to adjourn cases for good reasons in any event. However, placing this in statutory form will have a number of effects. Although judges try very hard not to make law whenever possible, they try even harder to respond to the law that has been given to them. If they see this kind of provision in statutory form, it will have certain-and I mean certain-repercussions. One is that the training of magistrates, from which the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, gave us some graphic illustrations earlier, will undoubtedly place greater focus on restorative justice.
	Those of us who from time to time attend what used to be called the Judicial Studies Board, which is now called the Judicial College, know that immediately the Judicial College, in its search for new and interesting courses, introduces new modules on restorative justice because it is included in statute, there will not be a judge in England and Wales-magistrate or judge at every level-who does not begin to focus on the potential of restorative justice conferences and opportunities. It seems to me that the key to this measure in many ways is putting it into statutory form, as that would highlight its potential throughout the judiciary. I hope that we will hear my noble friend the Minister responding in a way that not only is positive about restorative justice-we know that he will be positive-but that recognises the advantages of putting it into the statutory form suggested.

Lord Beecham: My Lords, the Minister regaled us earlier with some literary allusions, and Dickens featured largely in those. I would like to follow his example-something which I am not always disposed to do, but on this occasion I will-by making another literary allusion to the famous Sherlock Holmes story concerning the dog that barked in the night. Watson pointed out that the dog did not bark and Holmes said that that was the mystery. The mystery about restorative justice is that it is not yet in the Bill. I hope that as a result of tonight's deliberations and following the line of thinking of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, the Bill will include references to restorative justice for precisely the reason that he gave-namely, it would send a very clear signal of the Government's expressed intent to promote restorative justice.
	As has been indicated already, restorative justice has been around for a considerable time and has proved successful. Some 85 per cent of victims who have been through the process are satisfied with it. That is a very high proportion, particularly in these circumstances. The Home Office estimates that restorative justice has reduced reoffending by some 14 per cent. Again, that is a very significant reduction. To follow again the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, financial savings can be made in this respect. The Restorative Justice Council estimates-presumably on the basis of an equivalent 14 per cent reduction in reoffending-that in the case of adult offenders something like £185 million would be saved simply as a result of the reduction in offending quite apart from other savings that might arise. Therefore, we are talking about significant figures and a significant impact.
	Mention of the adult aspect of this matter encourages me to endorse very strongly the reference of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, to the need to spread the concept across the age range. At the moment, it is mainly concentrated on children and young offenders. Only 1 per cent of adult offenders go through a restorative justice process. Expanding that would be significant and would lead, in the view of the Restorative Justice Council, to the savings that I have mentioned.
	The Government have expressed their enthusiasm not only through the Minister's words but in the Green Paper, Breaking the Cycle, which was published some 14 or 15 months ago. That document contains positive references to restorative justice, describing it as a,
	"well established concept in youth justice,
	but pointing out that,
	"restorative justice for adults is sometimes viewed as an afterthought to sentencing".
	The Green Paper went on to say that the Government were looking at how they might change that, whereby in appropriate cases restorative justice became,
	"a fundamental part of the sentencing process".
	The paper stated that this was,
	"likely to involve using restorative approaches as a better alternative to formal criminal justice action for low level offenders where the offender and victim agree the outcome",
	including apologising, replacing items or making good damage and so on.
	The Green Paper continued:
	"Secondly, in instances where a court case is likely to lead to a fine or community sentence, [the Government] will explore how it could best be used at the charging stage".
	"At the charging stage" goes beyond the amendments before us, and it is an interesting concept. The Government said that it would explore how best it could be used then, and pointed out that, if used, restorative justice,
	"would be delivered as part of an out-of-court disposal, for example as a condition attached to a conditional caution".
	Again, a variety of action might be agreed-paying compensation to the victim or making good the offence in other ways. I do not know whether the Government have pursued that to any significant extent. Perhaps the noble Baroness who is to reply to the debate might comment on that. If not, she might follow up the point made at paragraph 80 of the Green Paper to see exactly how far the Government have gone. There is considerable potential in all this, and the amendments certainly should assist the process.
	Restorative justice is usually discussed in terms of the face-to-face encounter between victim and offender, and that is perhaps the most obvious use of the term. However, it can be used in the broader sense of what is sometimes also called justice reinvestment-that is to say, in schemes such as community payback, whereby instead of individual reparation the offender is putting something back into the community, and not necessarily into the community that has suffered directly from his or her depredations, but into the community generally.
	There have been some encouraging schemes around this concept. In my part of the world, two schemes in particular stand out that involve the successful restoration by offenders of two Victorian parks-Albert Park in Middlesbrough and Saltwell Park in Gateshead-where in both cases mainly young offenders worked under supervision and made a significant contribution to a local amenity as part of their punishment. The process had two effects: first, it of course gave the community an asset; but, secondly, it gave the offenders a skill and an experience of useful employment. Restorative justice can be applicable in that wider concept. In my own ward of Newcastle City Council there is a church with a large graveyard in which many local dignitaries of the 19th century are buried. It was in a poor state and there is now an ongoing restoration scheme that is facilitated in part by a group of offenders on a community payback scheme. That is another good example of restorative justice in that broader sense.
	Both approaches to restorative justice are potentially valuable. I hope that the Government-in addition to endorsing the concept, as I am sure the Minister will-will ensure that the concept is enshrined in statute to give an impulse to its spread in practice, particularly but not exclusively among adult offenders. This would also ensure that the good intentions of the Green Paper, with which we on the opposition Benches certainly agree, were translated into reality at both individual and community levels.
	I congratulate noble Lords who brought this matter forward in these amendments. I hope the Government see their way to accepting these amendments and, arguably, to expanding them in the way that the Green Paper appeared to advocate.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, where but in the Lords would we be having such a wonderful debate, run through with humanity, after 10 o'clock at night?
	I acknowledge noble Lords' support for the principle of restorative justice. The Government are indeed committed to delivering greater use of restorative practices across the criminal justice system. It is one of our key priorities. For example, we have already begun providing more than £1 million-worth of funding to youth offending teams, probation trusts and prisons for restorative justice training and practice standards, and we are currently setting up neighbourhood justice panels based on restorative principles. It is excellent to have noble Lords' support for restorative justice. However, the Government believe that the amendments are unnecessary, although we are sympathetic to the intentions behind them.
	On the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord, Lord Ponsonby, as I think he realises from what he said in his speech, a court already has sufficient powers under the existing requirements of the youth rehabilitation order and community order to make restorative justice activity a formal part of those orders. The activity requirement allows the court to consider the use of restorative justice where it has been advised that the victim and offender have agreed to take part and provision is in place to deliver such a requirement. The amendments make no provision for ensuring that both the offender and the victim are completely prepared to participate in a restorative justice process. That is crucial to the restorative ethos and to prevent victimisation, but I understand what the noble Lord is aiming at.
	Turning to Amendment 172DAA in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, the courts already have powers to adjourn sentencing for the provision of restorative justice to be undertaken if they believe it will inform the sentencing process. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be reassured that the Government are looking at taking that process further to allow for restorative outcomes to help inform the courts as to what appropriate sentence should be handed down.
	However, the amendments do not contain sufficient safeguards to prevent the ineffective use of remand resources to adjourn sentencing and hold offenders in custody in cases where the victim does not want to participate. The amendments also do not seek to impose a restriction on the length of remand, which poses additional risks not only to delay in court time but also around the proportionality of remanding an offender in custody for a significant length of time without sentencing.
	Therefore it is much better for the courts to retain discretion to decide when and in what circumstances restorative justice can be effectively undertaken, although we understand people's concern to ensure that it is high on the agenda. In practice, that would most likely need to be in cases where the court has already been notified of the willingness of both the victim and the offender to participate in the restorative justice process.
	As I mentioned, it is crucial that the victim should have the opportunity to consider and undertake restorative justice if they so wish, and the offender must also be completely willing to participate-which the clause does not provide for. Any circumstances in which the offender is not completely prepared to participate in restorative justice-which cannot be signalled simply by a guilty plea-presents serious risks for the victim being revictimised because the offender is falsely or forcibly engaged in the process.
	We have heard a great deal about the potential of this approach, which is of course very encouraging. Before we can make any determination as to whether further, specific legislation is necessary for restorative justice, we must make significant steps to build capacity to deliver it. Once we have begun to make greater strides in embedding restorative justice across the system and helping areas to put necessary provisions in place, we will reflect carefully both on whether to widen the application of restorative justice using the law and on how to do so, if it proves necessary to take this approach. Although I understand noble Lords' enthusiasm to enshrine this now in statute, there is work to do before we reach such a stage-persuasive though noble Lords undoubtedly are, and we certainly agree with their principles. Although we share a common interest in the increased use of restorative justice, at this stage I nevertheless urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I particularly thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. He emphasised an important point which I forgot to emphasise, which is the importance of victims and how restorative justice can be of benefit to them. I also thank my noble friend Lord Judd. His central point was the importance of bringing restorative justice into the mainstream of sentencing-a point on which all noble Lords who spoke tonight agreed.
	The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, gave some statistics about victim participation rates. I found them surprisingly high-much higher than my own experience of restorative justice in youth courts, where our main problem is getting victims to agree to participate. That is a substantial problem that I have come across, but if the noble Lord has other experiences, I am encouraged to hear that.
	The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, gave his cautionary tale. I am afraid that I can give cautionary tales as well. Nevertheless, restorative justice is a good thing to aim towards and to try to implement. I was amused that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, predicted extremely accurately what the Minister's response was going to be to this group of amendments.
	Having said all that, I am encouraged by the noble Baroness's response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 177DA withdrawn.
	Amendment 177DAA
	 Tabled by Lord Woolf
	177DAA: After Clause 78, insert the following new Clause-
	"Enablement of courts to remand cases for restorative justice arrangements
	(1) Subject to subsection (2) where-
	(a) at his first hearing, a defendant pleads or has pleaded guilty to an offence, and
	(b) there is an identifiable victim of that offence,
	the court may remand the case in order that the victim shall be offered the opportunity to participate in a process of restorative justice involving the offender and any person or persons affected by the offence.
	(2) A court may not remand the case for the purpose specified in subsection (1) unless it is satisfied that arrangements for a process of restorative justice can be or have been made in the area where the offender will reside.
	(3) Where a court does not remand the case the purpose specified in subsection (1) at the first hearing it may do so at a subsequent hearing."

Lord Woolf: I was not intending to move this amendment, although I wanted to add one or two words to what has been said, in which case perhaps I should move it. Like the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I was very grateful for noble Lords' contributions, which were of an extremely high order. I think that restorative justice is something that we now need to seize hold of and take forward. Although I listened with interest to what was said by the noble Baroness about the fact that the amendment may not be needed, I ask her to take it away and think about it, and I do so for two reasons. First, if she will-

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: If the noble and learned Lord is proposing to continue with his speech, would he allow me to put the Question, as I think that strictly speaking we are out of order? We need to put on the record that the amendment proposed is Amendment 177DAA.

Lord Woolf: I apologise-I should have given the Deputy Chairman that opportunity. Perhaps I may continue with what I was saying about the possible misinterpretation of the amendment. If I understood the noble Baroness correctly, she said that one of the shortcomings of the present draft is that it does not take into account the situation of the victim, who must of course consent before he can take part. The whole core of the first subsection of the amendment is to give the victim the opportunity-I emphasise that word-to participate. It is absolutely of the essence of the amendment that the victim must consent.
	I have not taken part in many of the debates, but I have the strong impression as I have listened to parts of debates-and a significant part of this one this afternoon and evening-that there is a danger that we are putting off everything until another time. We will find ourselves in exactly the same situation. If noble Lords wish to spend the time that the legislation deserves by examining it in detail, it is like a dash of cold water for amendment after amendment to be turned down when, for example, as far as drafting goes, the matters outstanding are well capable of amendment in a few minutes by a meeting with the Bill team.
	There is a serious point at stake which goes to the heart of the legislative process. We have too much legislation but when legislation is introduced we must examine it with care. We must not lose the opportunity, by delaying tactics, of making amendments that can properly be made. I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I support the noble and learned Lord. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that it is very important that the victim should consent. Amendment 177DAA states that,
	"the court may remand the case in order that the victim shall be offered the opportunity to participate".
	It does not say in any sense that this will be imposed on the defendant.

Baroness Northover: I refer noble Lords back to the concluding remarks that I made. I fully understand that amendments may not be phrased quite as we might wish but I hope that I addressed the principles. We are very supportive of restorative justice. I gave reasons why we feel that we want to take this further forward and see it in practice before building it into statute. My noble friend Lord Carlile anticipated that I might say something like that, and I expect that the opposition Front Bench thought likewise. We can continue to discuss this. We accept the principles and wish to take it further forward. Whether that means that it will go into statute is another matter. I hope that on that basis the noble and learned Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Lord Woolf: Taking into account what has just been said in coming to my conclusion, at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 177DAA withdrawn.
	Clauses 79 to 81 agreed.
	Amendment 177DB
	 Moved by Baroness Lister of Burtersett
	177DB: After Clause 81, insert the following new Clause-
	"Enforcement
	(1) Where a magistrates' court has fined an offender who did not respond to a summons and who was absent from the court when convicted, or has imposed any other financial penalty in the absence of the offender, at any time-
	(a) the court may suspend or withdraw a warrant of enforcement given to a bailiff, and
	(b) the bailiff may return the case to the court which convicted the offender or such other responsible court within the jurisdiction of the area in which the offender resides ("the responsible court").
	(2) Regulations shall be made enabling a court, Her Majesty's Court Service or any person employed to enforce a warrant against a convicted person, to suspend or withdraw the warrant and return the matter to the court which convicted the offender or the responsible court as in subsection (6).
	(3) Any person enforcing a warrant for a levy of distress or an execution against goods on behalf of a magistrates' court shall be paid a single fee in respect of the work undertaken on the warrant to recover the fine or debt.
	(4) Where any person enforcing a warrant for a levy of distress or an execution against goods following a fine or other order imposed by a magistrates' court fails to recover the payment of the fine or discovers no or insufficient goods exist, that person shall return the matter to the court which imposed the fine or the responsible court in subsection (1) in order that another enforcement method for the recovery of the money owed may be undertaken.
	(5) Regulations made under subsection (2) shall include the steps to be taken in a case where following conviction it is discovered that the convicted person falls into a "vulnerable category" for the purposes of page 9 of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents or as may be prescribed.
	(6) Where on enforcing a warrant for a levy of distress or an execution against goods, the person enforcing the warrant discovers that the convicted person falls into a vulnerable category for the purposes of page 9 of the National Standards for Enforcement Agents or under regulations made in subsection (5), it shall be the duty of the person enforcing the warrant to return the matter to the magistrates' court or the responsible court as the case may be for further consideration of the enforcement steps to be taken."

Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, this is a probing amendment supported by the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust-Z2K-and Citizens Advice. I am grateful to Z2K in particular for its help. The amendment would end legal confusion when bailiffs are on the doorstep of vulnerable and impoverished debtors and fine defaulters. The confusion arises between, on the one hand, the judgment in the case of R v Hereford Magistrates ex parte MacRae, which states that once magistrates' courts have passed a fine to the bailiffs for enforcement it cannot be returned to the magistrates for reconsideration; and on the other hand, the current advice of the Ministry of Justice, which states that it can be returned to the magistrates under Section 142 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980.
	In its briefing note, Citizens Advice says that when a county court issues a bailiff's warrant-a warrant of execution-for enforcement of a debt, the debtor can apply to the court to have the warrant suspended and the court can make an order for payment of the debts by instalments. However, no such facility currently exists in the magistrates' court for a person who is subject to bailiff action to enforce an outstanding magistrates' court fine.
	Once the fine has been passed to the bailiffs for enforcement, the debtor has no clear channel to ask the court to suspend the bailiff action on the grounds of hardship or vulnerability. In such cases, the only option for a defaulter or the advice sector is to try to negotiate instalment payments with the bailiffs directly. However, as numerous cases seen by the CAB service show, bailiffs will often refuse to accept an affordable instalment. Instead, they demand full payment or large instalments that fine defaulters are unable to afford. Some of these cases highlight how the magistrates' court gives these often poor and vulnerable defaulters no help or support, refusing to take the warrant back from the bailiffs.
	I shall give an example. A problem arose in a case dealt with by Z2K. A collection order was issued by Wycombe magistrates against a lone mother with three young children, threatening arrest, bailiffs, referral back to the court with the fine increased by 50 per cent, et cetera. She had failed to pay for her TV licence and then failed to pay the fine of £210 plus £60 costs levied in her absence by the magistrates. At the bottom of the collection order was written in capital letters:
	"ONCE ISSUED A DISTRESS WARRANT CANNOT BE WITHDRAWN AND YOUR MONEY OR YOUR GOODS MAY BE SEIZED BY BAILIFFS AT YOUR EXPENSE".
	In a panic, she borrowed £400 plus £260 interest from Provident. She then went to the court and paid the £270 she owed in an envelope into a machine, which did not give her a receipt. Later the court told her that she paid only £170 and it wanted remaining £100. She genuinely believed that she had paid and thought there must be a mistake by the court. Threatened by the bailiffs again, she reluctantly agreed to pay off the £100 at £5 a week, but no payments were received by the court, which then sent out the bailiffs. The bailiffs sent two letters and called twice, adding £150 to her fine. She described the conversation as follows:
	"I tried to explain that I had already paid the fine he had to collect and that I shouldn't be paying it again, let alone another £150 fee for a bailiff. He said no way I could pay weekly, he would give me two more weeks to pay it. I tried to explain that I am on Income Support and that there was no way I could pay him £250 in two weeks. He said that was not his problem and he would be at my house at 1.00 pm on the 15th June. He phoned on the 14th. I explained again to him that I didn't have £250 and that I am on Income Support with three young children. He said pay me the money on Friday or I will get a locksmith and break into your house and take your possessions, he said it with quite an aggressive tone, which made me feel intimidated and quite scared. I then tried to contact Drakes [the bailiffs' firm], however all you get is a machine with options none of which are to talk to someone".
	I am sure that noble Lords have experienced just that, but not in such stressful circumstances.
	Since March 2006, bailiffs have had the power of forcible entry. There is a tendency to use the threat on the doorstep without proper consideration of the circumstances of defaulters. At this stage, Z2K heard of the case. It immediately wrote to the court asking for a rehearing of her case, but the court stood by the MacRae decision and refused to take the case back. Z2K then wrote to the Ministry of Justice pointing to page 9 of National Standards for Enforcement Agents,which gives bailiffs discretion to return cases in vulnerable situations. The MoJ replied that,
	"enforcement officers can be prevented from continuing with the execution of a distress warrant. This can be done by a single magistrate",
	under Section 142 of the Magistrates' Court Act 1980.
	In the event, the court reheard the case on receipt of a written request. A McKenzie friend presented a statement of her income, expenditure and debts and related the circumstances of the case to the magistrates. The magistrates reduced the fine, arranged for it to be paid by deduction from her benefits at £5 a week, accepted that she had already paid £170 and ordered that she be repaid £40. The bailiffs were withdrawn without their fees being paid.
	That is part of the problem. The bailiffs enforcing magistrates' court fines are private companies. They make their profit from the fees paid by the fine defaulters. If they return cases to the magistrates, they lose their fees, so they obviously prefer the MacRae judgment to the MoJ guidance. They should not lose money for doing the right thing, so the amendment proposes a fee which is paid whether or not the fine is collected. I understand the fee structure is under consideration and consultations are due to take place.
	Finally, the national standards for enforcement agents have been issued by the MoJ since 2002. They have proved ineffective because there is no duty in law on bailiffs to abide by them. In many cases that would otherwise be referred back to the courts, the defaulters or their advisers could negotiate reasonable instalments of the fines with the bailiffs if the rules were enforceable, otherwise the pressure on bailiffs to collect their fees for their managements and the fines for the courts can wreak havoc in the finances of impoverished lone parents, where the fine for TV licence evasion or fare evasion is disproportionate, and there is no avenue to seek the justice of proportionality so precious in British law.
	This is a modest amendment, which seeks to clarify an area of confusion in the law and to do so in the interests of often very vulnerable citizens. I hope that the Minister will be able to give it sympathetic consideration or, if it is defective, to come forward on Report with an alternative amendment. In doing so, she would be making good a promise in the coalition agreement that:
	"We will provide more protection against aggressive bailiffs".
	I beg to move.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment.
	My neighbour's wife was parking her car in the car park nearest to the Wrexham Council offices some months ago and she put the sticker, which cost her 80p, on the windscreen but it fell on to the seat. It was still visible there but those who were collecting in the area decided that this was in breach of the regulations, so she was charged £40. A certain amount of correspondence took place with Wrexham Council, as you might imagine-indeed, the ticket was produced-and it was pointed out that there was no need for this, but nothing happened.
	In the end, a magistrates' court warrant was issued, after a lot of argument, and it was enforced. By this time, the 80p that had been paid for the sticker had become £450. The bailiffs alleged that they had been to the premises on a number of occasions. There was no sign of them having done so and the people concerned were in throughout the period, but that is what they said, and they charged an extra fee for every attendance at the property. There was absolutely no control over what they were charging. Of course, as has been stated by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, they said that a distress warrant cannot be withdrawn. Indeed, on a bailiffs' website that I have just looked at, they say precisely that, that it is impossible to withdraw a warrant once it has been made.
	I decided to look at the case that the noble Baroness referred to, the MacRae case at Hereford and Worcester Magistrates' Court in 1998. According to the judgment that I read, the procedure was based essentially on publications in 1990 and 1992 of the Home Office's best practice advisory group on fine enforcement and relied substantially on a computerised fine enforcement system. When an offender is in default and has not contacted the court to request more time to pay, the court issues a final demand. If there is no response to that, the computerised system produces a draft distress warrant, which passes through certain manual checks to ensure that there are no known circumstances that would make it inappropriate to issue the warrant. MacRae decided that once that computer has produced the distress warrant and one or two people have looked at it, that is the end-the bailiff can do nothing about it.
	The noble Baroness referred to Section 142 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980. That was the response received from the Ministry of Justice. Section 142(1) states:
	"A magistrates' court may vary or rescind a sentence or other order imposed or made by it when dealing with an offender if it appears to the court to be in the interests of justice to do so".
	So there is power, which is contrary to what was said in MacRae and to what appears on current websites by bailiffs, and which is in accordance with the advice given in the case to which the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, referred.
	However, there is confusion. My neighbour eventually paid up the £450 because his wife and children were in tears. Rather than keep that scene of distress going on, he produced his chequebook and paid up. What is happening is that people are being bullied on the doorstep. This amendment would put that right. It would make it clear and would clarify what is currently wrongfully being done, in my submission to your Lordships, by bailiffs.
	The amendment states that a warrant of enforcement may be suspended or withdrawn but very importantly it states that a,
	"person enforcing a warrant ... shall be paid a single fee".
	There would not be any of these ghost returns clocking up the fees for every attendance at the property. The amendment makes specific provision for those who are in a vulnerable position and are not in a position to stand up to these bailiffs when they come round to collect. That situation has been a disgrace. This is an opportunity for the Government to put it right and clarify what the law is so that we all know what should happen and what the proper procedure should be. I support the noble Baroness in her amendment.

Lord Bach: My Lords, a powerful case has been made for this amendment in two powerful speeches from noble Lords. We look forward to the Minister's response.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I have listened carefully to the case made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, in support of this amendment. I am also aware of the arguments made by Citizens Advice and the Z2K Trust. There are essentially two issues as regards the amendment. The first relates to the current law relating to the power to withdraw warrants for non-payment of fines, which has not been particularly explored in these discussions but to which I will return.
	The second relates to the practice of bailiffs enforcing those warrants particularly against fine defaulters, especially those who may be considered to be particularly vulnerable. I understand the concerns that many people have about bailiffs enforcing warrants. However, many people are concerned at the level of fines that remain unpaid. There is a balance to be struck between the need to have an effective way to collect unpaid fines, and therefore to enforce the orders of the court, and the need to allow for some flexibility in the treatment of fine defaulters.
	The national standards for enforcement agents were revised last month. They set out specific standards-for example, for dealing with vulnerable and socially excluded people-and I hope that the noble Baroness has seen them. It includes a list of those who may be potentially vulnerable, including the elderly or people with a disability or where someone has a difficulty in understanding English. In addition, the contracts with bailiffs include several conditions relating to their behaviour and treatment of vulnerable people. The Government remain of the view that the national standards, guidance and contractual arrangements are the best and most effective way to ensure the appropriate use of enforcement powers.
	With regard to the first issue under the amendment, which relates to the legal powers to suspend or withdraw warrants, the Government think that this area deserves further consideration. We do not think that there is any doubt that a court has the power to suspend a warrant that it issues but there is at least an ambiguity about the question of whether a court or a fines officer can withdraw or suspend a warrant issued by a fines officer. I am willing therefore to take away these points and to consider whether there is a need for a change to the primary legislation and whether that change can be made in this Bill or at a later stage. In the light of that, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his support and for another cautionary tale that he related to good effect. I would remind noble Lords of the very strong language he used. He talked about "confusion" and people being "bullied" and that it is a "disgrace". I think that those words are warranted. I also thank the Minister for her response, in particular for leaving open the door on the second part. In taking away these issues, I wonder whether she would be willing to commit to meeting with the Zaccheus 2000 Trust and Citizens Advice to talk through the possibilities. The question is: if not in this Bill, in which one? It seems that we have an opportunity here and the Minister has shown an openness of mind that perhaps there is a case for clarifying this in law. I hope that the noble Baroness will seriously consider it for this Bill because another opportunity may not come up for some time. In the mean time, we may see other cases of people being bullied or rebuked and very vulnerable citizens being put into difficult situations. I do not think we should delay when we have an opportunity in this Bill. However, given what the Minister has said and the lateness of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 177DB withdrawn.
	Clause 82 agreed.
	Schedule 10 agreed.
	Amendments 177E to 177G not moved.
	Clause 83 : Amendment of bail enactments
	Debate on whether Clause 83 should stand part of the Bill.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I shall be as quick as I can. Clause 83 is one of the shortest clauses in the Bill. It states:
	"Schedule 11 (amendment of enactments relating to bail) has effect".
	If we turn to Schedule 11 on page 193, we see that it sets out the proposals for amendments to the Bail Act 1976. If there was ever a need for a keeling schedule, it is here. Amendments to the 1976 Act are set out in various paragraphs of Schedule 11, and frankly, it is not good enough. There really ought to be a proper keeling schedule of the amendments being made to the 1976 Act, and I really would ask the Minister to arrange for one.
	My substantive point is this. Schedule 11 would subject bail in adult cases where a person has been accused or convicted of an imprisonable offence, or where a person has been released on bail but fails to surrender to custody, to a new test where bail could not be withheld if there was no real prospect that the person would receive a custodial sentence upon conviction unless he might, if released on bail, commit an offence involving domestic violence. It would also remove the court's power, where an adult is accused or convicted of a non-imprisonable offence, to remand them in custody on the current available grounds: likelihood of failure to surrender to custody and/or previous arrest for breach of bail to commit offences or interfere with witnesses or obstruct the course of justice. It would create a new ground for withholding bail on the grounds that he might commit an offence involving domestic violence. There is a power to withhold bail, but the grounds are only that the accused might commit an offence involving domestic violence.
	Of course it is a good idea to prevent remands in custody where the system can, and we support that. But the concern is-and here I am grateful to the organisation Justice for what it has to say about this matter-that the new test leaves no residual discretion to the court to withhold bail even where there is strong evidence that a defendant will commit a violent offence, intimidate witnesses or otherwise interfere with the course of justice on bail. The exceptions in the Bill relating to domestic violence, while welcome, are confined to too narrow a class of case, providing no protection for other deserving grounds; for example, where there is a substantial risk of violent intimidation of a victim of crime not of the same household as the defendant-so not domestic violence.
	A further issue is the new "no real prospect" test, because it may in practice be difficult for a court at an early stage in criminal proceedings, or even up to the end of a trial/guilty plea, effectively to assess the likely sentence. Even more seriously, there may be a legitimate expectation aroused by the conclusion that there is no such real prospect at an early stage. The sentencing court, with full relevant information before it, may take a different view of the case and there should be no question of its being influenced or, particularly, bound by the court's earlier view.
	While we understand the desire not to remand in custody people who should not be so remanded, we feel that the Government have not thought through sufficiently the great gaps in these proposals. For example, somebody who might intimidate a witness would have to be granted bail under these circumstances because imprisonment was not available as a possible punishment for the crime that they were alleged to have committed. There are too many holes in the provision which, I am afraid, will be breached, and it takes away the discretion of the court.
	The Bail Act 1976 has worked pretty well in practice. I do not say that it is perfect, but I wonder whether Clause 83 is not so full of holes that it will be abused by defendants.

Lord McNally: My Lords, intimidation of witnesses is itself an offence, so one has to put these things into perspective.
	The noble Lord mentioned a Keeling schedule. I note the point that he has made and shall take advice on it.
	I am slightly amazed that either Justice or the noble Lord has cavilled at this proposal. It is said that decisions regarding remand and about sentences are completely separate. So they are, as the law stands; the question asked by this government proposal is whether they ought to be.
	The Government consider that, in general, defendants should not be remanded in custody where it is apparent to the court that there is no real prospect of their being imprisoned if convicted. Let me be clear: this is not any Alice in Wonderland idea of sentence first, verdict afterwards. The court will not engage in a sentencing exercise in advance of the trial. The provision affects only cases where it is clear at the outset that the alleged crime is not serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence. Where that is the case, remanding the defendant in custody is generally disproportionate and not a sensible use of prison space. That sort of defendant will not pose a serious threat to public safety. Those defendants who pose such a threat will not pass the "no real prospect" test and so will still be liable to be remanded in custody.
	Some respondents to the Green Paper argued that special considerations might apply where offences are committed in a domestic setting, in that an offence that does not require custody might nevertheless imply a risk of domestic violence if the defendant were bailed-the noble Lord raised that issue. We recognise the force of that argument, and have taken account of it. The provision incorporates a special exception to deal with that sort of situation. However, remand places are too expensive to waste on defendants who do not need them. We want to ensure that they are used only where it is necessary to protect the public.
	I take note of what the noble Lord has said. I will consider and reflect on it but we believe that this is one simple way of stopping the use of scarce prison accommodation for people who, once they are tried and sentenced, are not going to be sent to prison. Clause 83 and Schedule 11 should stand part of the Bill.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede: What would the noble Lord say to the case of failure to surrender? It is very common in magistrates' courts to get people who repeatedly commit low-level offences and have no regard for court orders. They just do not turn up to court. Is the noble Lord really saying that there should be no threat of keeping them in custody until their trial?

Lord McNally: They can be tried in their absence and of course they can be picked up and put into custody. We are trying to deal with a very large number of people who go through our court system, are held in custody-taking up valuable prison space-but who from the very beginning it is clear will not receive any kind of prison sentence. If people do not turn up, of course they are in danger of being either tried in their absence or picked up and held in custody. If people try to intimidate witnesses, they commit a further crime for which they will undoubtedly end up in custody. In many ways, both Justice and the noble Lord are straining at gnats here. We are trying to deal with the very bottom end of cases. I will reflect on what he said, particularly on the Keeling schedule, and come back on Report.
	Clause 83 agreed.
	House resumed.

House adjourned at 11.08 pm.